Transcript 0:00 [electronic music] Which gets on the G Drive, and I literally don't have to do anything. 0:12 Gemini is taking notes as well, and literally, Jeremy, I just have to talk to you and be intentional, which I'm doing right now. Yeah. And hopefully, I pray the, uh, connection doesn't cut or there isn't any lag. 0:26 This is, uh, a new house I'm in currently. I just finished cleaning, as you can see a little bit. Yep. I got a vibe going on. So, you know, I'm taking this podcast seriously. I'm- I love it... I'm excited to be here. 0:37 So thank you so much for meeting with me, Jeremy, for 1:11. Yeah. All about new beginnings, spiritual awakenings. You know, a reset into your life, Jeremy. And, um, I want, I wanna start there, of course, you know? 0:51 So, um, give me, um, a new beginning for you recently that you just happened to, I guess, fall into, so to speak, you know? 1:01 And, and we've known each other for, you know, just to give the audience some, uh, background on us, we've only known each other for maybe s- three months, right? Yeah. Three or four months, give or take. Right. 1:10 It doesn't seem that long. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, I feel like I've reconnected with an old friend. Absolutely. You know? [laughs] Well, and I think that part of that- Take it away [laughs]... 1:20 part of that goes, part of that goes back to w- my little handy, uh, pen cup that I have here on my, my, my desk. Hey, Scott Adams. 1:26 You know, we, we bonded through, through a mutual, uh, mentor and friend- That's right... RET Scott Adams. We could start there. That, that's a lovely way to start. O- yeah, let's start there- Yeah... 1:36 with the Scott Adams. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and we could even, we could even, uh, in tribute to him, we could even do our own simultaneous sip, which is really fun, 'cause the, the, the, um, mantra's on the back. 1:46 So it goes, "All you need is a cup or mug or a glass, a tankard, chalice or stein, a canteen, jug or flask, a vessel of any kind. Fill it with your favorite liquid." I like coffee. 1:57 "And join me now for the unparalleled pleasure, the dopamine hit of the day, the thing that makes everything better. It's called the simultaneous sip, and it happens now. Go." Nice. 2:09 So that's what bonded us, is, uh, we, we both were fond of Scott, um, and his daily livestreams, his energy, his insights, his persuasion techniques. 2:19 And I think that, you know, you're one of the rare people I've met in, in real life that was a Scott fan. 2:24 Um, I've met some people online here and there, but, you know, haven't really connected with anyone like I have with you, which is really cool. That is really- And, um- I had no idea. 2:32 Yeah, it's- I thought we were everywhere. [laughs] Well, I mean, the thing is, I think we are everywhere, but- Yeah... weird how, how, you know, like those meetups, for example, have to be orchestrated, you know? 2:41 And that's cool that they're happening. Mm-hmm. It's like, it just is a testament to his community, to his, you know, like his legacy, essentially, like how he influenced people and how he affected people. 2:51 And so that was a big change. You know, losing him was a, a heartbreaker. And, um, you know, I feel like this time has been a time of recognizing death and birth cycles. It's big, big in the astrological world. 3:05 It's cosmic. It's bigger than all of us, you know? We've all been feeling it. 2025 sucked because of that, you know, a little bit for all of us. 3:13 And I'd say, like for the last six months, for me, it's been really palpable. 3:17 Because not only have I, you know, had some positive changes, which I'll get into, but I've had a lot of like, letting go, a lot of like challenging, um, situations that, um, really caught me by surprise. 3:28 Like, you know, who, who would've thought, you know, I'll be, I'll be turning, you know, half a century this year, which is pretty crazy. Um, but it's like who would've thought- That is insane... 3:38 that, that it's the, uh- You look, you look great, by the way. [laughs] Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah. You also look great, even though you're nowhere near, um, my age. A little longer to go. 3:47 [laughs] Yeah, no, but I appreciate it. It's like it does- Of course... it does mean something in the sense of not looking good, but feeling good. Like, I do feel young, and I do- Mm... 3:54 like, like just this morning I woke up early and, you know, I'm, I'm doing 75 Hard as a personal physical challenge. I'm like two weeks into it. It's really great. I love it. That's awesome. 4:03 And, um, already noticing improvements in, you know, like my, my articulation, like all sorts of stuff. It's really great. Um, 4:12 but yeah, so like, you know, the positive newness is like started a new gig at a, a cool new or cool agency, it's not a new agency, new for me, um, here in West Palm, um, called Pathos. 4:23 And they, they're a really great branding and marketing agency that, you know, is looking to grow and scale and, you know, like basically evolve into their best and highest selves. 4:32 So they pulled me in because I used to run my own studio, and they're looking for someone that has exactly, you know, my skill sets of building teams, pricing jobs, um, strategy, creative direction, all the things. 4:43 So it's a really great fit. It's really kismet how it happened, um, because their office happens to be located inside of a co-working space that I happen to just be working from. 4:53 And so we've been around each other for like the past two years. But I never thought I was employable. I always thought, I'm gonna be working for myself for the rest of my life. Right? 5:01 After you run your own business, you kinda think like that. Yeah. Isn't that the dream anyway? Always working for yourself anyway. Like, why would you wanna work for someone else? [laughs] I mean, right. 5:09 I mean, it's a good point, but it's also like dream nightmare, right? Because it's like doing it all yourself- Mm... is a total pain in the ass. It's like- It is. It is... it's, it's, uh, it's hard to build something. 5:18 And, you know, if it was easy, everyone would do it, you know, at the end of the day. So, you know, I've already built something. I didn't know if I wanted to build something again in that way. 5:27 Um, so in the, in the short term, I was just freelancing for the past five years, so I was kind of floating. 5:32 And I was feeling also like with this, the kind of ideological shifts that we've all faced, that we've all kind of, um, traversed over the past five, six years in particular, but really over the last decade, um, plus, um, 5:46 it has just been really eye-opening as to like my industry being so captured. And I'm like, where do I fit- Mm... into this world of captured ideology? I'm not, I really try to avoid ideology in general. Mm-hmm. 5:57 But I try to study it because I try to understand it. I think it's really important to get where people are coming from, but- And, and before you get m- more into this- Mm-hmm... 6:05 can you remind us, like, what do you do exactly, and how do you, how do you help people? How do you serve? Oh, yeah, yeah. 6:11 So my new position at Pathos is, um, I'm Head of Brand and Creative, and so I'm a creative director, but I'm also, like, in charge of... My two big goals are 6:21 put systems into place and mentorship and, um, and rules that help the creative, uh, excellence of the agency. 6:28 Like, help boost the excellence and make work really, um, impactful, memorable, meaningful, compelling work, you know, in general. 'Cause I'm a big believer that we live in a world of brands. 6:41 Like, whether or not you're in branding or not, we live it every single day, every single one of us. That's why the personal brand has risen to i- its, um, recognition in society. And at the end of the day, 6:52 I wanna build a culture that I wanna be in, and we build it by building better brands. Mm-hmm. And so it's like I'm really acutely aware of this. 6:58 I'm acutely aware of how manipulation is used upon all of us all the time, whe- uh, whether it be advertising or the news or a movie or whatever. 7:07 Um, it's just in all of it, and once you start to see it, and once you start to understand those rules, you really, like, in my opinion, it's, like, hard to sit back and just let it happen, you know? 7:17 And so I'm doing what I can to, like, move the needle in that way. And so my two jobs are internal excellence and external perception, so I wanna, like, change how we're viewed as a studio. 7:26 My secret not-so-secret goal is to make us famous. [laughs] And so that's m- I mean, that's what I told everybody. I'm like, "We're, we're just gonna be famous. That's how it is. Get used to it." So- Yeah. 7:35 I love that mindset. Yeah. [laughs] So it's pretty fun. Great way. Great way. It's a cool thing. I absolutely love that. So, um, in reaching, um, your new beginnings, let's say, with this new job that you've never... 7:46 You know, in, in, in your hindsight you're like, "Oh, I didn't think I'd ever get a 9:00 to 5:00," but at the same time it feels safe for you, right? It feels... You, you feel more secure with your type of lifestyle. 7:56 And so maybe talk to me more about running your own business for so long- Mm-hmm... and now running or helping others run their businesses. Like, how does, how does that compare for you right now currently? 8:08 That's a great question. Um, yeah, it's like running my... Well, so I, I, my studio that I was running, um, before was my second business, not my first, believe it or not. 8:17 My first one was a skate shop that I started in high school. Cool. And 'cause I grew up a punk rock skateboard kid. And so, um, it was like mid-'90s. Um, internet was not a thing. Mm. 8:28 Uh, everyone was mail ordering skateboards and, and all that kinda shit where I was living. I was born and raised in Lubbock, Texas, so there was nothing there. 8:34 I mean, so one of the best things I learned is how to make the most out of nothing, you know, growing up in a place like that, and that was a really useful lesson. Mm. 8:42 Um, because I mean, ultimately, all of my friends and I, we all made the scene cool. Like, it was either gonna be not cool or cool, and it's up to us. And so my friend ran the record shop, I ran the skate shop. 8:53 Uh, we both, you know, worked at a coffee shop that was the punk rock venue. My other friends were in bands. 8:57 Like, everybody was just, like, contributing what they could contribute to make it a cool fucking time, and it was cool while it lasted. It was great. And, um, 9:07 so I mean, I'd say that, you know, the best thing, you know, you can really do when you're, like, learning, uh, how to run a business is just fucking try everything. You know, honestly. 9:16 Like, learn from mentors, but it's like there's nothing that beats experiential learning, like skin in the game. Like, and you really just have to try shit. 9:24 Like, I didn't know anything about business, and now I feel like I'm pretty competent in business and I, and I've never taken one business class. 9:30 I've also coincidentally never studied graphic design or design in general- Yeah... but yet here I am, this world-class creative director, so. [laughs] You know? I'm just making it up as I go along, and you know- Yeah... 9:40 you just have to try shit and fail and learn, and like, 'cause there really is no failing. It's just winning and learning. Like, you either win, you either hit your goal, or you learn. Yeah. And that's it. 9:49 And so once you get into that flow, you're good. 9:52 And so it's, that reframes, you know, again, back to credit to Scott, it's like reframing your life is so important because you can tell yourself any story you want and you're gonna be right, so you might as well tell a good story, you know? 10:04 Like, honestly. That's- Like, that's kind of what it, what it's down to. Yeah, I love that, and being the hero in your own story. Mm-hmm. Creating that narrative for yourself. 100%. 10:13 And maybe you can talk to me more about... Because I feel like a lot of people struggle to find their inner hero, you know? Oh, without a doubt. Without a doubt. And they struggle finding self. 10:22 And so talk to me more about how you figured out where was self for you, where was your hero? How far did you had to dig deep to understand who you are, what you need to do, and where you need to go in your life- Mm... 10:36 to be successful? I mean, gosh, it's hard to say when that started, but, um- Mm... 10:43 but it's like, it's one of those things where you kind of, along the way you kind of realize that if you don't take accountability for your life, you can't make a change. Mm-hmm. You can't change anything. Yeah. 10:52 So if you actually wanna change something, you have to first acknowledge that there's a problem, and then take accountability for that problem, and then you can finally begin to try to change it. 11:00 But even then it's, it's kinda tricky. Um, so it's like, yeah, but it's a, it's been a lifelong journey. It will continue to be a lifelong journey, I'll be honest. Like, these things are not one and done. 11:11 Like, it's very much, to me, a- Yeah... it's a situation of, like, learning how to, instead of, like, getting rid of imposter syndrome, you have to learn how to dance with it. Mm. 11:22 Like, you have to, like, recognize that it's gonna be there, and you just have to know, like, that everyone feels that way, and you just have to... Like, everyone's faking it, and so you just have to keep going anyway. 11:33 And you know, the more real you can be about that, the more honest you can be about those feelings, the more other people will be like, "Yeah, you know, I feel the same way." 11:41 And it's like, so then we're all in this together. We're all, like, separate, but together, and like, that's the thing. 11:46 Like, that's the paradox of life, is finding true sovereignty is how we can help the collective the most. Mm. And, and it's like, sounds really strange, but true sovereignty- No, it's... [laughs]... 11:56 is about accountability and it's about improv- and self-improvement and that ikigai Japanese concept of, you know- Mm-hmm... like how can I contribute what I'm good at, what I love to do, what's good for the world? 12:07 All that stuff. And it's like there's not one formula, and the only thing I can recommend to people is to, like, to look inward, not, don't look outward. 12:14 Like, we're not encouraged enough to look inward for answers, for right and wrong, for good and bad. But honestly, all the answers are there, you know what I mean? Like, that's- It's not, they're not out in the world. 12:24 You're gonna get confused if you, like, take in too much external information about this. You need some. 12:29 It's helpful to have, you know, so- a sounding board, maybe a good mentor, maybe a book or two, you know, things like that. But if you start to, like, really start to put all credence and credibility outside of yourself, 12:41 I mean, you're lost unfortunately, 'cause that will go away eventually. But your, your s- your, your, your heart, your soul will never go away. It will never leave you. Yeah. I think a big part of that is awareness. 12:52 A lot of people, they're not aware of themselves- True... or the capabilities that they even have because they're so distracted 13:01 with everyone else, what everyone else is doing, how they compare themselves to their social media friends, you know? It's like this comparison game, but I've also noticed it's like a status game. Oh, 100%. 13:14 I mean, status is so much a... I mean, we're emotional creatures and we wanna be loved. That's, that's what it boils down to. Mm-hmm. And we, so we make- Who do you wanna be a- associated with, though? Uh-huh. 13:25 Who do I wanna associate myself with, w- and will they help me give me the status that I deserve or that I want, right? Absolutely. This is like a selfish, um, game that people play. 13:39 Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, that, that's the trick though. It's like so many of these things are, are paradoxical in that it's selfish- Mm... 13:44 yes, but it's also like, for example, if I wasn't recognized by the chief strategy officer and the CEO of Pathos for what I've already done- Mm... 13:56 I wouldn't be interested in working for them 'cause I'm not interested in proving myself. Yeah. 14:01 So that's not coming from a place of ego, it's coming from a place of I know what I have to contribute, so do you recognize what I have to contribute and are we gonna be able to play together, you know? Right. 14:09 So sometimes it's relevant to the situation, but other times I think you're 100% right. Most often than not, you're right in the sense that a lot of people, social proof is a thing, you know what I mean? 14:21 That's why people stick together. That's why people ha- you know, believe what they're told on the news. That's why people, you know, believe all this shit is, like, because it's the popular narrative. Yeah. 14:29 And so they- It must be right because everyone agrees... yeah, they want to fit in, you know? Yeah. [laughs] People instinctually wanna fit in, and ultimately it's, and it makes sense. 14:36 Like, I have a background in anthropology, so- Mm... the reason why they wanna fit in is 'cause if you, y- the tribe will beat the individual, period, every single time. Right. 14:43 So if you don't form your tribe, you will lose. And when, and traditionally when you got kicked out of the tribe, that was s- like, beyond a symbol for death, it was actual death. Mm. 14:53 So people want to avoid these m- you know, big, you know, psych- deeply psychologically rooted truths, um, that guide all of our decisions, you know? 15:02 Like, like Scott, uh, would always say, like, how much, um, the mating instinct drove our decisions. Like wanting to look good, wanting to, you know, be powerful, wanting to have a, you know, status, all mating. 15:13 And I'm like, totally, totally right. I can see that. So, yeah. I can see that 110%. Mm-hmm. And then I'm seeing more tribalism- Totally... online. Yep. It's huge. Yeah. And it just never stops. Mm-mm. 15:24 Especially on, you know, platforms like X, platforms like LinkedIn even, even platforms on Facebook. Yep. Even some TikTok, you know, they all have this, like, tribalism mindset. Mm-hmm. 15:35 Something that I feel like we need to escape- Oh, fully... if we want to, like, do what you wanna do in life and- Right... try to tune out the noise. Fully agree with you. I feel like- Yeah... 15:48 basically it's like, it's almost like there's two way... and rather than escape it, rathe- I think about it as two ways to hold something, right? Mm. 15:54 And, like, you can hold something like I'm holding my coffee mug right now, which I'm con- I'm gripping it. Like, I control this thing- Yeah... right? Yes. Yeah. And that means I can take a drink if I want to, like now. 16:03 Mm-hmm. I could throw this thing against the wall. I could do whatever I want with it 'cause I'm controlling it. Right. But I'm using a lot of muscles to hold this thing- Mm-hmm... 16:11 and it's not sustainable ultimately in the long run for either one of these things. But if I was to hold it like this, I'm supporting it and, you know, like, it's like far less stable. 16:19 Like, I have very little control over this. If I wanna take a drink, it's gonna probably spill. Like- Right... 16:24 so at the end of the day, I feel like it's about how we, how we hold these beliefs, and it's like clearly in certain scenarios tribalism is useful. Clearly. I mean, we- Sure. It works... 16:35 we couldn't beat a tiger without it, you know what I mean? Right. Like, we're not, we, we don't have big claws and we don't have all that stuff. We have to work together with a strategy- Right... to take down that beast. 16:43 And so at the end of the day, we need to hold that as a tool, not as the only way, you know? Mm-hmm. 16:49 And, and, like, we've been holding everything like this and we need to hold more things like, we need to hold our beliefs like this. Like a support. Yeah, and use it at any time. 16:56 It's a tool that's in our arsenal, but we are not limited by that tool. Right. And so, um, but we can use it any time we want to. So the, the thing we should, we should hold onto most tightly is our own sovereignty. 17:08 Like, that's the thing that would be really useful because, and again, it's a, to your point, it's about awareness, it's about, you know, knowing where you're fitting into the world, 17:17 you know, like how you're affecting things. But even then it's like we have to hold that kind of lightly too. It's like take the work seriously, but don't take yourself seriously. You know? Like, I don't know. 17:26 Just ask me a different question. Or, or I'll, or I'll ask myself- We're talking about tribalism. That's basically- Oh, right... what we're coming back to. Right, okay. 17:34 And, and I was approaching it from like, oh, it's a bad thing, but you were approaching it like, oh, it's actually a good thing or it could be used in some way that makes- Yeah... 17:42 you know, sense to people and that's why it exists. Right. Right, right. So I guess approaching it from that, that perspective, I think you were saying. Totally. Yeah. I mean, I tend to... Yeah. 17:50 It's like from an anthropological perspective, one way to th- think about culture is that when, like, human beings lived all over the world, right? Mm-hmm. 17:59 And there are certain things that are universal, um, that appeared globally versus locally. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and those things are like why do, why is every society patriarchal? Like- Mm... good question to ask. 18:13 It's like, but like historically speaking, across the globe for as long as we have recorded human history, they've all been patriarchal. And, like, those kind of things are worth looking at and worth understanding. 18:24 Um, but at the same time, like, too, so tribalism's the same way. It's like sure, it's obviously divisive, um, when taken to an extreme. 18:32 But it also is a useful tool when you're a small tribe and you need to take down the saber-toothed tiger that's gonna kill you. Mm-hmm. It's like you have to work together. 18:39 So at the end of the day, it's, it's more wise to look at these belief systems and look at these, um, abilities to either, you know, represent yourself as a sovereign individual or as a group as options rather than a must-have all the time in all scenarios. 18:54 Like, you can, you can be fluid. You can choose to be tribal in this scenario and be sovereign in this, in this other scenario. 19:01 As I mentioned earlier, the best thing we can do for the collective is know our individual sovereignty and bring that fully. And then ultimately, that's how you can contribute best to any given group that you may join. 19:12 Um, so. So how do you keep your sovereignty or agency and still feel like you're part of the tribe, though? Well, that's a good question, 'cause it's like, you know, the group think, um, precludes individual thinking. 19:26 So I- it's kind of like you have to walk that line of never being fully part of the group, but, but recognizing their values, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. 19:35 Like for example, like I align these days with this current administration and with what's been going on politically on the center right by and large, but I'm not a Republican per se, by, by my own definition. 19:50 I'm not a conservative per se by my own definition, but I ha- have a lot of conservative values. Mm. 19:55 Like, I really believe in anti-war, like small government, like free to free markets, like all these kind of things, and a lot of these things are classical liberal values- Mm... like which is really funny. 20:04 Um, and you used to find that on the left, and now you don't. Now, you find it on the right. So, you know- Interesting... it's just, yeah, shit changes. 20:11 And so, but I, you know, I, I did change my voter registration at one point to be from Democrat to Republican, but now I'm, now I moved it to independent. Mm. 20:19 Um, but I only did that strategically 'cause you can't vote in primaries if you're not one or the other, which is bullshit. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. So, yeah, yeah. 20:26 If you're, if you're independent, you're not allowed to vote in a primary, which is super dumb. Oh, okay. And it was really important to me to be able to vote in these primaries before. Mm. 20:33 Um, so I, you know, was like, "I can't be a Democrat. I'm not technically Republican, but fuck them. Who cares? I'm gonna vote for who I vote for." And, um, so yeah. Can I, can I ask, who, who did you vote for last? 20:45 Oh, Trump, for sure. Oh, you did vote for Trump. Okay. Yeah, all the way. All right. Yeah, the last two times. That's awesome. Yeah. 20:50 I wish, I wish I did it the first time, but I was, I was still captured at that point with that ideology that is so broken. Um- Yeah... 20:58 and I have a lot of empathy for people that are, that are there, because I was there, too. Yeah. I, I was, I was had the same information. I was lied to just like you were lied to. Yeah. 21:05 So it's like they're not bad people. They're just, they're just misinformed. Yeah. That's right. They're just wet robots at the end of the day. [laughs] I mean, kind of. Yeah. 21:14 Anyone can be a robot even, even, even on the, on the right side of things. It's a matter of if you're- That's true... if you're challenging yourself to think or not. 21:22 A lot of people get handed their opinions one way or the other. 21:25 Yeah, and y- I feel like you can tell, too, when you're talking to someone how they've reasoned with themself or rationalized with themself this opinion and how you know it's just fed 21:36 from another political pundit or it could be from the fake news as well or- Yep... it could be, um, even from their friends, right? So- Absolutely. 21:45 It's all- And you, you want, you know, you, you hang out with your friends because you're like-minded. Yep. You hang out because you all believe the same thing anyway. 21:52 So you're, you're, if you're MAGA and you're hanging out with a bunch of MAGA people, you're gonna be, behave like MAGA, you know? [laughs] Right. You all got the hats, and you're gonna like- Right... 22:00 go to all the events, and you're just gonna promote, promote, promote. And, and if, if anyone speaks ill, then you know, it's just like- Exactly... 22:08 death, death to America or, [laughs] you know, like death to Hillary or whatever, you know? 22:13 So it's just, and it's so, I f- I feel like, and I don't wanna get too political, but at the same time, I feel like that's kinda where we're going. And I don't mind we go to this route a little bit- Mm-hmm... 22:22 because I think it plays a bigger part on a national level of like what we really want out of our lives and who do we wanna align ourselves with and how does that play a role in our beliefs, our values, our virtues, you know? 22:36 Like, all of these play a huge hand in how even we grew up and how we're, like, transforming day by day. Right. So, um, and I know politics, it, it's, it's so easily, you can so easily get swayed one way or another. 22:50 Actually just got finished with Win Bigly by Scott Adams. So nice. And he's all about p- it, it's all about Trump. It's all about political persuasion, and he breaks down the certain persuasion keys. Yep. 23:02 And, like, there were many times between the book where he was switching of like, "Oh, I, I, I'm gonna do Hillary, but then I got Trump, and then I w- I'm gonna switch to independent, and then no, no, I didn't sign." 23:11 [laughs] You know, Scott couldn't make up his mind. [laughs] Yeah, yep. Yep. [laughs] And, and I'm just like, do you ever feel that way too, Jeremy, like with your political affiliation? Oh, yeah. 23:22 Or at the end of the day, like does it even really matter? Like does it even matter? [laughs] Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, at the end, you're right. So there you touched on a lot of really interesting things- Yeah... 23:30 'cause like, you know, there's one thing where you talked about how, like, you, you don't wanna get into the political. Well, it's like it's hard not to these days- Right. Mm... because what's his name? 23:37 Um, Andrew Breitbart was famous for saying that po- politics is downstream from culture, right? Mm. 23:42 Well, I have a new theory, an updated theory, 'cause he was right, but, but he also is not alive anymore to see what's happening now. 'Cause now- Mm... politics is no longer downstream from culture. Politics is culture. 23:54 Exactly. Like, politics have become the new sports. Like, people totally, like, follow it just like they follow their favorite sports teams, and it's the same thing. It's about winning and losing- Yeah... 24:02 which is part of the mistake. Like- Yeah... I feel like we need to really think about what kind of games we wanna play in the world. Like, we, I don't wanna play zero-sum games. 24:10 I don't wanna play a game where I, I win and someone else's l- loses, 'cause I simply know better. I know- Mm... 24:16 that any game that is a zero-sum game can be easily flipped into a game that is non-zero sum, where I win and you win. 24:23 It can be easily flipped every single game, and the fact that we're not doing it is either out of corruption or laziness. There is no middle ground there. It's one or the other. How about if it's both? Could it be both? 24:36 It, it could be both. I mean- Or, and, and there's a lot of lazy people. For sure. But it's like as soon as you challenge yourself to- Yeah... again, it goes down to reframing. You're reframing zero sum to non-zero sum. 24:46 It's that simple. Right. And so I just feel like it's so, such a, it's such a obvious trap to me. Like, once you see it, you, I won't fall into that trap, but it's not obvious to most people unfortunately. Mm. 24:58 And, um, so it's like, so at the end of the day, good luck not talking about politics. Talk about a mask. Is that political or is it not? Talk about a color. Talk about the, a red hat. Is that political or not? 25:07 It's like, I mean, arguably it's a fashion thing, but it's not. Yeah. Clearly, it's clearly a statement. Yeah. It's clearly a political thing. Identifier. [laughs] And, yeah. 25:17 And then bigger than that, it's like the opinions thing. It's like- Yeah... 25:20 if people can unpack with eloquence in their own words as to why something matters, like, to them, why they're fighting for what they're fighting for, what they, why they believe what they believe- Mm... 25:30 then they've likely formed their own opinion, especially if it's counter to the popular narrative. 25:35 If they have a popular narrative belief and all they can do is speak talking points over and over to unpack it, it's kind of makes me think of that movie Idiocracy where it's like, "Brawndo, it's what plants crave." 25:47 And like, that's how they would, that circular logic is what they use- Yeah... to propo- like to market that, um, Gatorade that they were pouring on everything that was killing the Earth. Right. 25:57 And so they were assaulting the Earth, basically. And spoiler alert, sorry, um, but- It's okay. It's an old movie. [laughs] Yeah. It's an old movie. Um- It's a good one. It's a good one though... 26:06 but yeah, no, but it's, but it's l- Yeah... legit. I mean, it's legit the same circular logic. That's the problem with wokeism and woke logic is that it's circular and it's not very, it's doesn't go very deep. 26:14 As soon as you follow it all the way through- Yeah... it lands you in a totalitarian m- mindset, period. E- every single time. And it's, it's weaponized compassion. 26:23 I mean, they, they start with something good that we should have. We should have compassion for each other. Of course. I believe in humanity. I love people. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I want everyone to thrive. 26:30 I have no hate in my heart. Yeah. It's like one of those things. At the end of the day though, you have to have boundaries as to like what is requested versus what is mandatory. Mm. 26:40 Like, it's fine if you can choose to put pronouns in your bio, but if you're gonna get fired if you don't put pronouns in your bio, that's insanity. 26:47 It's like, it's just one of those things where my name is Jeremy and I have a beard. It's clear that my name is clearly a masculine name. I look masculine. There's nothing questionable about that. No. 26:56 I don't need pronouns in my signature of, of my email. It's like- [laughs]... it doesn't matter, you know? Yeah. But someone named Reagan or, I don't know, Sydney, you know, that could be masculine name or feminine name. 27:08 That's totally fine if they want pronouns in their, in their name. That's totally chill. I get it. You know what I mean? That makes sense. But to force everyone to do it b- based on guilt and some nonsense is crazy. 27:18 Yeah. Yeah, it's just unreasonable. That is crazy. And so it's kind of like, yeah, the slow decline to totalitar, um, yeah, totalitar, uh, government, you know? And I can't even say that word right now. 27:28 It's just- [laughs] It's totalitarian. It's- Totalitarianism. There we go. [laughs] It's helpful. Yeah. 27:33 And it's like the people let, you know, that are very woke, let's say, don't, don't they realize that that's, that's the path leading towards? No. 27:45 I, I gen- I, based on my own experience of being in that world, believing the narratives I was told without going into a deep analysis of them- Mm-hmm... 27:54 they, the world is not about, even though evil exists in the world, or evil exists for sure, and there, there is good versus evil in the world- Sure... 28:02 I really feel like most struggles we have culturally speaking and between people are about good versus good. Mm. 28:07 Meaning that everyone that's fighting for their cause thinks they are fighting for something good ultimately. Right. 28:13 And when you, for me, when I've reframed my, in, in my head like those people that are in that, that court, I've had a lot more love and empathy for them. Mm. Because I don't think of them as bad people. 28:26 I don't think of them as fighting for the wrong thing. Right. I feel like they've been misled. They've been lied to. They've been handed a bunch of horse shit just like we all have been handed a bunch of horse shit. 28:35 Right. And so I just got lucky and woke up, you know, 'cause I was around the right people, you know? Right. At the end of the day it's like I could have, I could have not woken up and I would've been one of them. 28:45 Am I a bad person? No, I'm actually the same person, I just am more informed now. Like, I actually ironically care about exactly what I cared about before. Like, my values haven't changed at all. Right. 28:56 I happen to see how truly damaging these supposed beneficial things like DEI are. Like, DEI is just pure backwards, like, thinking. 29:08 Uh, like it's, it's pur- it's, it's kind of like the atypical, like, it looks good on the surface but it does bad in its reality, in its practice. Again, I can unpack your, each, each letter of why, you know? 29:20 It's like it's just crazy. And it's sad because it's rooted in goodness and, and it's wh- that, that's the deepest manipu- ugh, the deepest manipulation- Oh, yeah... is it attracts in goodness. 29:29 That's why I say weaponized compassion is the two word definition of wokeism. Mm. It just, like, they take something good and they turn it against all of us, and it's the worst, so. I hate that. Yeah. 29:41 It's like they want everyone to have this sense of equality, right? Yes. We're all equal, and we wanna show how equal we are by hiring more diverse individuals for our company. Right. But then it, 29:56 you know, like, it's, it shouldn't, that shouldn't how a company should be run. It should be merit-based, right? It's like they should actually earn it. Exactly. 30:06 Like, they should actually be qualified, not just based off the color of their skin. It should be- 100%... because they are the best person for the job, right? That's- Shouldn't it have always worked like that? 30:18 And, and that's common sense, right? It feels like common sense. I mean, it's what I was raised with. It feels common sen- yeah, same with me. I'm like- Yeah... it's always common sense. Right. 30:26 And how did we stray away from common sense so far, so far left, let's say? [laughs] I mean, this is the power of persuasion. This is what Sco- this is what Scott Free- This is crazy. This is cr- blowing my mind, Jeremy. 30:40 Common s- how did we get from common sense to- You know? Like wokeness. It doesn't make any sense to me. It really doesn't. Yeah. 30:47 And I'm like, I, I, I believe that they really are who they believe or they claim to believe, of like they feel like they're in the right. 30:55 It's, it's the Scott Adams watching two different, what was it, two different shows on one tube. Yep. Or whatever, and it's like one person sees the exac- exact same show another person is watching. 31:06 However, they have two totally different opinions. A- absolutely. How is that possible? How are we, how are we in two different narratives, but there's literally only one reality? 31:16 It's evidence of the power of persuasion. It's like literally- It's huge. I was gonna say... like this is what he so he, he, as he was famous for, he says a lot of- Mm-hmm... 31:22 like simple provocative statements, and one of them is that facts don't matter. Right. Persuasion's all that, is persuasion is king. That's true. 31:29 And what he, and that can rub people the wrong way because they're like, "What do you mean facts don't matter?" And it's like, well, this is what it means. At the end of the day, going on a plane, 31:38 by our eyes' judgment, seems more dangerous than driving a car. Mm. But statistically speaking, by the facts, driving a car is infinitely more dangerous. Yep. 31:47 Infinitely, like you're driving in a moving metal coffin, basically. Yep, yep. Good luck surviving. Airplanes are infinitely more safe. Yep. So it goes counter to what our eyes are proving to us in the world. 31:59 And so it's one of those things where that's where persuasion, you know, we're being persuaded by what's normal. We see a lot of people driving cars all the time, it must be totally safe, way safer than flying. Mm. 32:10 But you know what I mean? Like it's just one of those things where it's like we have to start to realize that what we think is true isn't necessarily true. 32:17 It's like we see the world as we are, not as it is, and we project so much often. And so we have to be really mindful of what are we projecting? What are we, what are we believing? 32:28 What are other people proj- projecting and telling? So these stories, like growing up in the '80s, '90s, whatever, I was born in '76, like I remember very clearly like 32:37 not one person around me, I was in Texas, like not one person around me gave a fuck about race at all. Like we were all cool with each other. Oh, cool. 32:45 I hung out with, my closest friends were Hispanic, Black, white, w- women, men, it didn't fucking matter 'cause we, it was like, "Are you cool? Great, let's hang out." That's it. Like, "Are you a cool punk rocker? 32:55 Are you into skateboarding? Do you like music?" Right. "Do you like art? [laughs] Let's hang out." [laughs] And it was fine, and it was great, and no one had a problem. 33:04 And at the end of the day, I feel like something happened in maybe the late '90s, I'm not really sure when- Mm... 33:09 where it was like this narrative was injected where all of a sudden terms like white supremacy or, uh, this kind of bullshit was just re-injected into the frame of how we understand reality. Right. And it's, 33:22 in, in life, the reason why persuasion works is you find what you're looking for. Mm. So if we can persuade someone to look for something, they're gonna find it. Mm-hmm. Guaranteed. Every time. 33:33 So if they're gonna look for problems, I guarantee you can find problems. If they're gonna look for solutions, they're gonna find solutions. If you're gonna look for division, you're gonna find division. 33:41 If you're looking for unity, you're gonna find unity. Mm-hmm. And it's just true. So that's how we got here in my opinion, and it's like through 33:49 so many ma- like manipulations of narratives, so many edited things that are intentionally edited based on like who's paying for what. It's like it all boils down to corruption, sadly. 34:00 And it's, and a lot of it goes back to like this crazy stuff that's coming out with the Epstein files. I mean, to be honest. It's like it's about those 12 families that run the world, you know? 34:09 It's like those faceless, nameless people that- Are they really people? Yeah, right. [laughs] People that are doing what they do. You know what I mean? It's- I think they're android at this point, honestly. 34:21 That's, that's insane. But I wanted to, you said something earlier about how we're, how we're persuaded, and, um, a light bulb hit in the form of how advertising works. Totally. 34:35 And how we're persuaded based off, you know, because marketing, it comes down to, you know, it's, it's a distraction marketing or permission marketing, essentially. 34:44 What do you want the algorithm to serve you, or what, what, what will help you and actually benefit you as a utility- Mm-hmm... versus what is distraction? 34:53 We know like more than 90% of all marketing or advertising we see is distraction marketing- Mm-hmm... is what Seth Godin has said in one of his books. 35:00 So I'm curious on your take of like, I think the corruption definitely lies in follow the money. Mm-hmm. And that money lies in advertising dollars. And we know America with their advertising has gotten insane. 35:16 Both of us work in advertising, you know, and it's something that we constantly are aware of because we work in the industry, and we also know how persuasion works. Yeah. 35:26 But maybe for those who don't, you know, it's like I really, like moving forward with social media, I really wanna create a system where it's not the advertising model we have currently. Right. 35:39 It should be based off memberships. Sure. 35:43 I think that model would work so much better, and I feel like if people were up front and willing to pay the cost of a membership fee and they don't get served the ads they don't wanna see- Mm-hmm... 35:55 I feel like we would live in a better world. Honestly. Yeah. I hear that. I hear that. And I don't disagree entirely. But [laughs] Yeah. I don't disagree entirely. It's a, it's a nice- Like what other model works? 36:07 Like, because what we have now doesn't work, honestly. Well, it sound, yeah, it sounds cra- Doesn't work... well, I think the, it sounds kinda crazy to say this, but- Mm... 36:14 like I was having a conversation with someone last night actually about- Oh... autonomous cars and how he drives a Cybertruck or whatever, and so he's for the idea of autonomous cars taking over. Mm. 36:27 Because it, his logic was he's, you know, he hates seeing car wrecks. He knows that statistically speaking, it's like you're not looking at a bunch of cars. 36:33 You're looking at one car brain with a bunch of car fingers all on the roads. Like so they're not gonna hit each other. Oh, wow. That's how autonomous cars work. That's why they're safer- Yeah... 36:41 is you're not gonna hit yourself. You know what I mean? Like you're- Right... so it's like kind of that simple. Right. 36:46 Um, but you know, the tra- like, you know, the famous Thomas Sowell, you know, to credit him where credit is due, is famous for saying that there are no solutions in life, there are only trade-offs. Mm. 36:56 His trade-offs are not my trade-offs. 36:59 Like, I personally feel like what he's gonna be giving up, 'cause he doesn't know about 15-minute cities, he didn't know about a lot of things, um, so I told him about that kind of stuff, where the 15-minute city concept is, like, based on, like, social credits. 37:10 It's based on, like, if you are tied to this autonomous self-driving car thing, you might not be able to take a road trip like you used to be able to because you might not have paid your taxes or you might not be an upstanding, you know, uh, light of the government. 37:24 Or you might not have the credits to pay for extra to take your car outside the city limits, or you've already gone over your driving limit for that week, or whatever the fucking rule is gonna be, 'cause that's what you're giving up is freedom. 37:36 Like, you're giving up freedom by saying yes to this. And it's like, so in my opinion, to get back to your original question, I feel like the best system is ultimate freedom. Mm-hmm. Like, no system. Like, you... 37:48 Like, because what you're proposing also controls it. Like, so imagine that I only got to see advertisements of things that I want already. Like, well, then I will never get exposed to something new. Right. 37:58 I'll never get exposed to something that I don't know that I want. That's why I go to records stores, so I can dig through the crates- Right... and find shit that I've never heard of. Mm-hmm. 38:06 That I never knew I was looking for. Yeah. And now I'm like, "Holy shit, this is amazing." Right. Like, "I'm so stoked I found this thing," you know? Yeah. 38:13 Like, I want more organic, accidental, uh, discoveries to happen in our lives. Mm-hmm. 38:19 And the only way to do that is to go through life unscripted, unag- with no agenda, no algorithms, and expose yourself to things that you normally wouldn't, you know? Mm-hmm. 38:29 And so in that way, I feel like I don't disagree that the advertising model is broken in the sense that it's very... There should be rules on it in the sense of, like, it's crazy that we can advertise medic- medicine. 38:40 Like, the fact that we and New Zealand are the only countries in the world that can do that- Insane... should say something. It's ridiculous. Like, w- that shouldn't be legal. Yeah. Um, so there's things like that. 38:49 That's insane. Yeah. Yeah. There's things like that that should absolutely be regulated, but beyond that, it's almost like it needs to be l- more unfettered in general, you know what I mean? Like, more open. 38:58 Um, I tend- Yeah... to think that our imperfections are what make us perfect as people. Yeah. You know? 39:02 It's what makes us relatable, it's what makes us human, and at the end of the day, humans wanna interact with more humans, and, like, that will never change, hopefully. Hopefully. 39:10 I don't know, is that a good segue to AI and sharing about your AI experiences or [laughs] Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Since, uh- It's okay... 39:18 it's becoming more relevant, actually before I hit the record button on our podcast we were just talking about Claude Bot. Right. 39:24 And, um, I'm curious, love, uh, what, what, what you're thinking about this whole AI resurgence? Yeah. Because I feel like it took a bit of a plateau. Mm-hmm. 39:32 I would say late last year nobody was, like, really talking about it. Now all of a sudden everyone's talking about it again. Yeah. For sure. So love to get your take on that. Your hot take. 39:40 [laughs] Yeah, no, my hot take, my hot take. It's a good one, it's a good question, it's a great topic. It's really- Mm-hmm... it's, it's everything. 39:46 Again, I feel like so many things, the theme of this time to me is paradox. Everything that is really true in life is paradoxical in its core, and this is yet another one. 39:59 And I, the reason why I say that is I'm equally terrified of the AI, like, you know, us- like, revolution or, like, coming as I am- Did you like that article I sent you? [laughs] As I am excited, right? 40:10 It's both in the sense that I- [laughs]... I tend to think of, I tend to think of everything as, like, ingredients. I look at the world as a chef- Mm... 40:17 in the sense that every, like, the more you can learn about the world, the more ingredients you have to cook with- Mm... in general. Mm-hmm. And so I like to learn everything. 40:27 You know, I like to know about all sorts of weird shit. Mm. And, and it's just fun because I don't have to believe everything, I just have to understand it. That's different. 40:36 Like, understanding it means I'm, I'm made smarter because of it, and I can make better decisions, and I have more reference points, and I have more ability to pivot and speak to things, and all sorts of shit. 40:47 But if I believe it, then I'm trapping myself into a, you know, a hard lined groove where I can't get out of that. Right. So I expose myself to as much as I can, whether it be on YouTube or in books or in life, whatever. 41:00 Um, but when it comes to AI, I mean, I feel like it's just another useful tool, and I really do feel like there are some scary aspects to it. 41:07 Like, the whole Molt Book shit that was happening was definitely weird, but I also don't know how much- Right... how much of that is real, like, or staged- I know... or whatever. I know. So I'm kinda like that. 41:16 I, fear is one of the biggest persuaders, so I'm always skeptical of fear now. Mm. Anything that's, that drives fear into anybody, I'm like, "Is that true?" Like, first question, is that actually worth being afraid of? 41:27 Mm. Because it's like our instincts are to want to respond, like, im- immediately to fear. Right. And it's like we have to, we have to bolster ourselves to not have that immediate response. Um- Mm-hmm... 41:39 and then beyond that, I would say that there's one thing that gives me hope in the m- in the sense of 41:44 where our place in, where humanity has a place in the future still in the sense that there are, are certain first principles in life that are like economic principles that will always apply. 41:54 And one of those is scarcity creates value. Mm-hmm. And as things ramp up in the AI world, as things become more and more AI prone with AI agents and robots and all these different fucking things- Yeah... 42:09 humans are gonna become more and more valuable- Mm... in the sense of our scarcity. Mm. Like, we're gonna have fewer interactions, so they're gonna be more valuable. 42:18 It's like, it's like if you live in New York, you can walk by 100,000 people every day and not say a word to any of them because they're kind of annoying, they're kind of in your way, like, whatever. 42:27 It's like proof of, like, there's too many of them. Right. They're not scarce, so therefore- Right... not valuable. But if you go and live in the rural parts of America or, like, some other foreign country- Alaska. 42:35 [laughs] Every single, every single person that you walk by will say- Yeah... "Hola" or "buena" or something. Yeah. They'll r- they will acknowledge, "Hey, I'm alive. You're alive. We're alive on this planet together. 42:46 It's awesome." That's me. [laughs] And then you keep walking. Right. And, like, but that, so again, the scarcity of- Yeah... made, have become instantly more valuable. You see one or two people a day. Mm-hmm. 42:56 So- That's huge... it's important. That's huge. So would you say then being or starting your own YouTube- Yeah... 43:05 or doing more, you know, something, a, a show, like do you feel like, uh, being a creator now is more relevant or more, uh, more important than ever for people who actually want to run their own businesses? Absolutely. 43:20 100%. It's like one way to think about being a creator is like who's the biggest creator? Well, God is the biggest creator arguably if you believe in God, whatever, or the cosmos or whatever you wanna call it. Mm-hmm. 43:32 And so it's like to embrace our own creator nature is to embrace our own level of godliness, our own level of like tapping into our little piece of God, whatever that looks like- Mm... in your world. 43:42 And again, that ties back into self-accountability and ma- being able to, once you t- once you are accountable for your life and how it is, like then you can make changes. 43:50 If you can't take accountability, you're not the God of your own life. You know, you're not, you're not in charge. Like other things are guiding you. And, um- Right... it's like it's a big deal. 43:59 I think that being the creator is one of the most important things you can do regardless if you run your own business or not. Because even if- Yeah... 44:04 as a creator at a, a job like I'm at, for example, I'm in the admin team, but I'm not running the business, but I am a leader. 44:12 And the way I think about leadership is I want everyone that is like, you know, below me, that reports to me, to see themselves as leaders as well. I don't want them to see me as their leader. 44:21 I want us all to see ourselves as our own leaders working together. You know? So you guys are all co-leaders. Yeah. On some level. But it's like- [laughs]... you know, I'm ultimately roles still matter. 44:30 Like I'm still- Yeah... final say, for example, like it- Of course. Of course... makes a big difference to have somebody be very clear about like their roles and their positions, but- Yeah... it's not to dominion. 44:40 It's ba- basically what it says is that there are no small jobs. Like- Yeah... it's like that person is in charge of what they're in charge of. Yeah. And they need to own it like a leader. Don't own it like an employee. 44:50 Right. Don't own it like somebody that you're not leading, you know what I mean? Mm. Because everyone's a leader in their life or they're not. So that's that. There you go. Yeah. You should be a leader. 44:58 You should have your own agency, right? If you don't have that, then you- There you go... basically are like, "What are you doing?" Like you're just following at that point. 45:05 You're a sheep, and it's like we shouldn't be sheep, we should be, what? Wolves or, I don't know, some, some like being that just leads, right? A, a lion. I don't know. However animal. What, what's your favorite animal? 45:17 Yeah. [laughs] Be that. [laughs] And you, and you have- What? [laughs] And you have to start with yourself. Mm. You have to. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you can't lead yourself, you can't lead anybody else. 45:24 It's, it's just how it is. And, um, it requires vision, it requires some level of confidence and self knowing. It requires some level of humility. Mm. It requires like 45:33 being able to like have, set, set and have boundaries, you know? It requires a lot of things. So. Yeah. That, it, it's a lot of requirements though. So it's like how does someone, how does someone, 45:46 how is someone able to take ownership and be responsible, I know these are scary words, and have discipline- Mm... and put effort into their own agency? Like what, have you found the best way to do that? Oh, yeah. 46:01 For sure. I mean, I give, again, I, not to make this all about Scott, but full credit to him- [laughs]... for popularizing the idea of systems over goals. Mm. Like that's really how you do it, is you start to see- Mm... 46:12 where you are not showing up in your life. Like g- g- 'cause again, it's like the process is first acknowledgement and then acceptance, and then you can make changes. 46:21 And so you kinda have to like get to those two first steps, which are big for a lot of people. They're, they're hard. 46:27 It's like self-awareness is a big thing, and just like acknowledging, you know, that you're responsible for how you got here, not your parents, not your circumstance, not your race. 46:36 Like, you know, all these kind of things. Like you have to drop all that bullshit and you have to like- It's so hard. [laughs] Yeah. For a lot of people, that's so hard, Jeremy, though. I, I don't disagree. 46:45 Like how do they, how do they do that? How do they do that? I don't disagree, and I feel like it's about the stories we tell ourselves. We- Mm. It's hard because we tell ourselves that story. It's hard. Right. 46:53 But if you tell yourself a story like, "Oh, it's easy," like what i- like that's a great question to ask yourself. That's one way to get, get through the barrier- Mm... 47:00 is you can s- ask yourself in any given scenario, what would this look like if it were easy? Mm. Because it's gonna be different for everybody. 47:09 And sometimes it, you know, looks like the pathway through is around, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like that's just how it is sometimes. 47:16 Um, but at the end of the day, I feel like the way to do it is the way to do anything, which is by trying and failing. Like, like there's no other way to do it, and you can't give up. Yeah. You have to stick with it. 47:26 You have to keep getting back on the horse. Like that's one lesson I feel like I learn, I learned so much from growing up skateboarding that- Yeah... 47:33 one thing for sure that it taught me, amongst many other worldly lessons, was resilience. Mm. 47:38 Like if I wanted to fucking learn this trick, I had to endure the pain of taking shiner after shiner or twisting my ankle or falling on my back 1,000 times and getting up 1,001 times and fucking doing it. 47:51 It, no one's gonna do it for me. No. Like, and that's, yeah. [laughs] And it, the best it was like I got, I got really good 'cause I was really committed, so it- Yeah. Sounds like it. 48:00 Yeah, we haven't really touched about your skateboard experience, and this is interesting to me because I never really got into skateboarding when I was a kid. Yeah. 48:06 So I remember trying it a few times, but honestly, I liked rollerblading better, you know? Yeah. I was like, "Oh, this is way cooler," you know? So I rollerbladed a lot, but- Yeah... or the biking. I, I biked a lot. 48:16 I was a big biker until- That's cool... I got into running. 48:18 But I'm like with skateboarding, what's, what's some of the life lessons that you learned from skateboarding, other than obviously failing and trying, getting back up again? Yeah. You know? 48:26 Resilience, that, that's a big one. Yeah. But what other life lesson do you feel like can apply to learning how to skateboard? Oh. So many. Well, like the meritocracy thing, for example. 48:35 Like meritocracy is v- like, I mean, unfortunately today, I can't speak to skate culture today because skate culture today- Oh... I think is kind of woke. I think like- Okay... at least the popular part of it. 48:44 I think there's pockets of it that are not. Yeah. But I think, I think wokeism has infiltrated a lot of the- Oh... what would be considered the arts, in my opinion. Mm. 48:53 I consider skateboarding more of an art than a sport, personally, um, because it's kind of like gymnastics or martial arts or something like that, but it th- and there's no real, like, win-lose scenario. 49:02 Like, you either learn the trick or you don't type of thing. Like, we look at it like that now as a win-lose scenario 'cause of the Olympics and shit like that. But- Oh, got it... 49:09 or because of, like, X Games or whatever, but it's not like that. Like, if you're- Yeah... out on the streets with your homies, like, there's no winning and losing. It, did you get the trick or not? 49:15 Did you fucking, did you progress- Yeah... or not? Did you have fun or not? Yeah. That's, that's what you- Fun. Fun... that's what you measure. I love that. Yeah. 49:21 And so, yeah, I learned, I learned fun through skateboarding, like, as well, like, to remind myself, like, if I'm taking it too seriously, I'm doing it wrong. Mm. You know what I mean? [laughs] And, um, I learned, um, 49:33 yeah, like, you know, it didn't matter what level I'm at, if my friend who I'm out skating with is learning board slides and I'm learning 360 flip blunt slides, it doesn't matter. 49:43 If he learns a board slide and he lands it that day, I'm gonna clap for him, and it's gonna be, it's gonna stoke me out to wanna do my shit. It doesn't matter what level you're at. Like, there's no judgment there. 49:51 It's more about, like, how stoked can we make each other? Like, how much fun can we have together? And so yeah, it was like, I didn't, it didn't matter your age, your race, your gender, anything. 50:01 Nothing w- we didn't give a fuck about any of that. We didn't measure any of that. 50:05 And, um, it's just, like, you know, invaluable lessons of just, yeah, resiliency, how to look at the world, like, believing in yourself, like, no one's coming to do this for you. 50:16 There, there is no one way to do anything. That's another useful lesson is, like, everyone did their shit kind of differently. Yeah. Everyone had their certain trick arsenals. You know what I mean? 50:23 Like, in their toolkit that was, like- Yeah... their go-tos, and- Yeah... didn't make anyone a better or worse skateboarder per se. You know? Oh. 50:29 It's just like we all have our, our, um, you know, abilities and our, and our, you know, like, our areas of improvement basically, and that's just true. 50:35 So learning these kind of bigger lessons of, like, how things work in life were just invaluable. They were just huge. 50:42 And then of course, like, one big one was, like, my very first business, as I mentioned, was a skate shop in- Yeah... 50:46 in high school, and it was, like, my, it was my hack of how to beat the high school system, 'cause I wanted to be a good student, I wanted to get As. 50:54 Uh, you know, I was raised in a, in a, in t- a family that valued intellectualism, which is good and bad. Um- Yeah... 51:00 but I also wanted to go skate all the time, and I wanted to, like, get my shit done 'cause, like, the true scholar just gets their shit done and goes and does what they want. 51:06 They don't spend a lot of time in the classroom. Right. And so I got into the work study program, and I created my own business. And so I'd get out of school at, like, noon every day. Yeah. 51:14 And I would skate from noon until 3:00 by myself. Yeah. And then I would open my skate shop at, like, 3:30 when everyone else got out of school, and I'd be open- Okay... until 6:00 PM. 51:23 And then on the weekend we were open all day, and so it was great. It was, like, the perfect hack for me to, like, you know, have the, have the dream life as a, as a senior high school student. 51:31 Uh, how long did you do that? How long did you operate your skateboard business? Um, for t- like, little over two years, like, from '94 to '96, and, um, r- from, like, 18 to 20 in my life. 51:42 And then I moved from, I left, um, I left my company and I left Lubbock at that age- Oh... 'cause everything kind of imploded and I moved to Portland, Oregon, which at the time was dope. At the time, um- Portland's cool. 51:53 That's a cool city to move to. It was cool. It was very cool then. I see. [laughs] It was, it was one of those places where I was like, "Wow, I've never, actually I've never felt at home in Texas." Yeah. 52:00 Like, I've always felt like a, a weirdo because I was always- Mm... like, an outsider being a skateboarder, punk rock kid. That was not cool then. That was not considered to be desirable. And- Mm... 52:10 you know, um, so yeah. This was in, what was it, '80s in Portland? Um, yeah, it was, well, '90s when I ran my skate shop, but yeah. Okay, '90s. Early '90s. Nine- ear- yeah, early '90s. Okay. 52:19 That's when Portland was cool. Yeah. Well, you- And so why didn't you bring your skate shop to Portland? Why didn't you keep running it there? 52:25 Well, because I had a partner at the time, and I, I just, like, left it to him because, you know- Mm... he needed to do something. And he came back. 52:31 He, he had joined the Marine Reserves in the middle of our partnership, and so I was- Oh, okay... running it by myself with, like, a friend. 52:36 And so, like, when he got back from the, his deployment, um, he, he, he was ready to take it over again, and I was like, "That's cool. I'll just let you have it," essentially. And I moved to Portland wanting to 52:47 just kind of start fresh, to be honest, and Portland already had, like, a super sick scene. Like, they had, like, you know, Burnside Skatepark and all sorts of skate shops, and they didn't need more necessarily. Right. 52:56 So I just went there with, you know, my, my Honda Accord. It's loaded to the gills, and I just drove across the country and had a great time. I really just went there- Wow... for skateboarding. 53:05 And, and I, and then I left and I came back late, years later to, uh, be in this program called WK12 at the White Mountain Community. Mm. 53:12 And that's what put me on my, my path of being a creative, a professional creative. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And I wanna go back on the skateboarding real quick. 53:20 I've always felt like skateboarding was the trifecta of, um, like, the early '90s. So you've got, what, the hip-hop scene was growing and then the, uh, the graffiti scene- Yeah... was growing, and then skateboarding. 53:31 So these are, like, the three, uh, yeah, I guess the three things or the three activities that you see most boys doing- Yeah... 53:40 in the early '90s to, to escape school, to escape, you know, the, the rigid of, of 9:00 to 5:00, you know, just, just an escapism. Totally. You know? 53:50 I feel like, yeah, MTV really, um, highlighted that or showcased that, that, that, like, little trifecta. And when I was in Miami, uh, when I first went to Miami, this was about four years ago when I first- Mm... 54:00 went there, I, I, I remember talking to, um, someone at the graffiti museum, and she was giving me a, a big history of the graffiti scene, the murals, why this was so important, how it intersected with- Totally... 54:13 the skateboard and hip-hop, and I'm just like, I, I, I love those narratives, and it, it just, I I, I know they still exist on some point, but I feel like they're, they're kind of slowly being, like, disappearing. 54:27 Do you feel like that, or is it just me? Maybe because I'm getting old. [laughs] Well, I mean, it's both. I feel- I'm not so hip. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. 54:32 I just feel like they're kinda just slowly kind of fettering away, if that makes sense. Yeah. I'd say it's both. I mean, I think, yeah, they, I think in general that's happening. 54:40 Um, I think that people are getting more and more niche all the time, and so- Mm... things are just simply not as big as they used to be in general. Right. Skateboarding as an industry is dying, that's for sure. 54:48 That's been measured- Yeah... over the, over recent years. There's only a couple companies doing well, and everything else is, like- Yeah... you know, struggling. And- Okay. So... 54:55 but, you know, but there's- Yeah, but regardless of industry, there's just certain things from my opinion, like there's just certain things that will always be cool in every context, and like motorcycles are one of them. 55:07 Right. Skateboarding is one of them. Right. Punk rock is one of them. You know, there's just certain things that are just cool by their core, by their nature. Yeah. 55:14 And like when I say cool, I mean capital C cool, and it's like, so it's not for everybody. Like not everyone wants to be- Right... a hipster or is drawn to that underground scene or whatever. Right. 55:21 And it's like, and I kinda think the connection specifically between graffiti and hip hop and skateboarding were both good and bad, in the sense that- Mm... 55:30 with before those connections, skateboarding was much more broadly creative, for example. It was like it, you heard, you heard all sorts of music in skate videos. 55:38 You heard like everything from like oldies from our parents' generation- Right... to punk rock songs, to hip hop songs, to fucking whatever. And it didn't matter. It was like if it was cool- Mm-hmm... 55:48 if it was a cool song, then it would make it into the video for someone's part or whatever. And after a while, it became like you had to wear baggy pants, you couldn't wear shorts. If you did, that was stupid. 55:59 And you know, you had to, you know, um, like look the part, basically, and that becomes group think. That becomes an ideology. That's the problem. Mm. And it's like it's not wrong, but it's not right either. 56:09 You know what I mean? Like, I love it. Believe me, like my musical taste has been heavily influenced my whole life by skate videos, and I have a, and I was a DJ for a very long time. 56:17 I have thousands of records that are all over the place, like ranging from opera to classical to folk to hip hop to everything, you know? World music, whatever. As long as it's cool, I have it, you know? Yeah. 56:29 And, and pop culture, like there's all sorts of shit that I have. And um, and it's like it's more about the vibe than it is like anything else. Mm. Like does it vi- you know, does it vibrate? 56:40 And so, um, so I feel like I'm almost glad to see those ties break down a little bit and like see, 'cause skateboarding like also, like for ex- just the skateboard itself became a Band-Aid shape because it was like the perfect shape, right? 56:53 Mm. Well, it also becomes really boring, so s- people started introducing like weird shapes again, which I think is great. It's not practical. Mm-hmm. It is creative, and what are we fucking doing? We're being creative. 57:05 You know what I mean? Like at the end of the day, like being alive is creative. So, it's like- Right... 57:09 yeah, we, we've drilled down the, uh, the r- the path of perfection, all the way down to the fact that we whittled it to a perfect Band-Aid shaped skateboard. Like that will be the ultimate perfect shape forever. 57:20 But how about we have fun now? How about we try to do- Yeah... that same thing on a two by four? How about we try to do that same thing on a skim board? Yeah. 57:26 How about we try to do that same, whatever, you know what I mean? Just like, because it becomes a new challenge, and it's a new thing. 57:32 It's almost like one of the other lessons I learned from skateboarding was it's common in skate land for if you're skating like at a, on a ledge or a s- like a handrail or whatever, like the business that doesn't want you skating there will knob it. 57:45 They'll put knobs down, right? Right. And then that becomes a new challenge. Right, right. [laughs] It's not a stop. Like that chain at the bottom- Mm... of the staircase is now- Yeah... 57:55 I have to do a trick over the stairs and the chain. Ah. Like it's not gonna stop anything. Like that's the beauty of skateboarding, is like- Yeah... it, it's just like water or in life, it finds a way. Mm-hmm. 58:05 Like we will figure out how to skate that thing, and that's really cool. 58:08 Like that's like a really fun, it's like skateboarding's, skateboarding got me to ask the question how might we before I even knew that question was a thing. Mm. Like how might we? How might we still skate this thing? 58:20 Like curious, let's, let's do this. And it pushes le- it pushes you further than you would ever have pushed yourself. That's true. It's because it's a new challenge. 100%. 58:30 And if you have new challenges every single day, and I think this is one of the coolest parts about being an entrepreneur, because it's all about challenge, it's all about obstacles. 58:38 You're always running into these obstacles. And so like you probably already know the answer to this question, but I'm already gonna ask it anyway. 58:47 What do you do to overcome the challenge even if you don't wanna do that thing? It's again, systems over goals. You have to make systems for yourself- Right... 58:56 and just like, you know, if you can put something in place- There you go... that you can stick to- Yeah... that's just it. So much of this shit is mental. Like you have to get out of your head. It is. Mindset. You know? 59:04 Like- Yeah... you have to fucking force yourself to do it anyway. Like if you're tired, do it tired, you know what I mean? Like that's just how it works. And- Do it until you pass out. Basically. I mean, it's, you y- 59:16 yeah, it's a tough one. Ooh. I, I think, I think, um- I don't know, man... one more, one more Scott reference is that he talked about laziness in general. Uh, he talked about, um, like people that- Mm... 59:26 focus on the outcome are going to naturally be less lazy than people that focus on the effort. Mm. 59:33 So like if you're focusing on how hard something's gonna be or what a pain in the ass it is or whatever, you will never get the benefits. Right. 59:40 But if you focus on I'm gonna feel so much better, I'm gonna look so much better, I'm gonna do whatever, you're gonna, you're gonna fucking lift those weights. You're gonna do that cold plunge. 59:48 You're gonna do whatever you need to do that is unpleasant in the immediate short term for the long term benefits. 'Cause we are not naturally long term thinkers. 59:56 We're naturally short term, which is why, again, persuasion works and all sorts of things work. We just need to like arm ourselves with, you know, these systems that help us think long term. Yes, we do. 1:00:07 And I think these systems is what's going to save us too. Mm-hmm. And, and feeling the way we wanna feel, but also how we connect with others- Absolutely... in a really real way. 1:00:17 And now I, I know we're kinda coming towards the end of our, um, episode here. Uh, I just have a few more questions, Jeremy. Sure. And, and regardless, you know, this has been an amazing interview. 1:00:28 I've learned a lot about you, and this is- Mm... so cool that we're able to finally do this, so I just wanna say thank you again. But, um- Yeah... 1:00:35 but s- just looking down, you know, because, well, I, I shouldn't say looking down. Looking up. [laughs] You're 50, you know? Yep, yep. Even though you don't look like it- Halfway there... 1:00:46 you're, you're half a century old. Yep. How does, how does that make you feel? I mean, it, it mixed feelings, you know? It's like, it's also- Mm... paradoxical like so many things. Like I'm grateful for- Mm... 1:00:58 m- you know, my journey here. I'm grateful for, like, I wouldn't want to be, um, at an earlier stage in my life. Like, I have no regrets, um, even though things have never been perfect. 1:01:07 Like, they are what they are, and they've made me who I am, and I, I, I either have the choice of loving myself as I am or not. Yeah. I'm always gonna be improving. I'm al- always striving to be a better person. Okay. 1:01:18 So I feel like I'm a better person now than I've ever been. Um, so in that way, I'm super psyched to be where I'm at. Um, 1:01:25 but you know, it's like mortality's real, and it's like a freaky thing to, like, see, like, that number coming my way. 1:01:31 I'm technically 49 still, so to see that five, uh, you know, coming down the pike on my, uh, whenever people ask me my age is pretty interesting and pretty weird, and it's strange. 1:01:41 Like, in my head, it's like the story in our heads of, like, what, you know, well, you know, when does middle age really start? And some people would a- argue that it starts at, like, 30, you know, like 35, you know? 1:01:51 It's- Because- I'm only 40, but [laughs] Right. It's like, that's just it. It's like, so I mean, it's... So it's, it is what it is. Like, I mean- Yeah... age, age really is just a number, and, like- Yeah... 1:02:00 that's the story I have to tell myself because I feel much younger. I mean, I still, I still watch skate videos on Instagram. Like, I still, you know what I mean? 1:02:08 I'm still that same young punk rock skate kid, I'm just an, an adult now. Yeah. And I'm a, I'm a wiser person for all my struggles and all my failures and all my lessons that I've learned. 1:02:18 So I mean, grateful for all those. I mean, they taught me more than my successes. And so yeah, it's an interesting, it's an interesting time to start my life over. Like, you know, I've- Yeah... 1:02:27 you know, the other changes that I've gone through were a recent divorce, which was amicable, and I'm grateful for it. Um- Beautiful... sold my house. I moved to a new rental house. 1:02:36 The first time I haven't owned something in a number of years, so now I'm just renting, which is fascinating. Okay. First time I've worked for somebody else in a number of years, which is also fascinating. Right. 1:02:44 Took a new job. Right. So lots of changes. I feel like I'm kinda doing a hard restart on my life at- Yeah... at 50, which I'm, I mean, I'm grateful for. I mean, it's like- Yeah... 1:02:53 it sounds crazy, but it's also the fact that I can do it- Yeah... and it's happening is cool. Like, it's- Yeah... better than being stuck. That's right. It's way better- Yeah... than being stuck. 1:03:03 And I really appreciate just that, that response because I think a lot of people your age wouldn't think that way, right? Agreed. You're definitely an outlier. Mm-hmm. 1:03:14 I know, you know, you, you meet a lot of people around your age, and yeah, they're just, it's so different. It's just- Yeah, I totally agree... 1:03:23 a different type of mindset, different type of mindset for sure, and you can kinda see almost the despair in their eyes- Oh, totally... at times. Mm-hmm. And then others are just like, "It's another year." Ex- exactly. 1:03:36 No, it's so funny. I' m- the majority of people- Yeah [laughs]... I meet in their 50s look, look and feel so much older than me. I don't relate to it. Ah. It sounds crazy to say- Yeah... but it's so real. 1:03:46 And- That's crazy... I know a lot of 40, 40s people, like people between 40 and 49- Yeah... that are much younger. Mm. Like, that feel much younger, that are, that are living that life that, like, keeps them young. 1:03:58 Like, I think what's kept me young is that I pursue joy. You know, like I've- Mm... I've never not pursued activity and art and creativity and freedom and, like, just making stuff, just having fun. You know what I mean? 1:04:12 Like, I've never, like, fully embraced that whatever adult lifestyle was supposed to look like, like our, from our parents' generation. I just haven't. And so I still dress like I've always dressed. 1:04:22 I still am into what I'm always been into. Yeah. It's just evolving as to, like, what's the new, what's the new thing now? And so, I don't know. 1:04:29 I think that, you know, pursuing joy does keep you young, and I think that that's definitely one of those things that I feel grateful for. I love that. I love that, pursuing joy. 1:04:39 Yeah, that's an amazing way to kinda wrap up this amazing interview with you, Jeremy. So is there anything else you wanted to add? Any CTAs or anything else- No... you wanna share- No. Thank you... 1:04:51 that you haven't shared with me yet, you know? Yeah, no, I appreciate it. 1:04:54 Um, yeah, I, like, we covered a lot of ground, and, um, I can't say that I have a very strong social media president- presence, so, uh, don't, uh, don't worry about following me or finding me necessarily. 1:05:05 You can if you want to. It's, uh, Jeremy Pelley my name on Instagram. Mm. 1:05:09 Um, I'm kind of, no- I'm on, I'm on X, but I'm more of an, as a, as a anonymous account just to audit things and just follow whoever I wanna follow without judgment. Um, you know, if you wanna look up, look up Pathos. 1:05:20 Uh, the website is wearepathos, um,.com. And, uh, you know, it's, I haven't touched it yet, so, you know, it is what it's been. 1:05:28 Um, it will be evolving once I've had more time in this, in the studio, but, um, that will be cool to see what, um, we do together. Yeah. And yeah, I'm grateful for the opportunity. 1:05:37 Thanks for interviewing me, and thanks for having me on. It's, uh, it's, it's an honor to be here. Aw. Honor is all mine, Jeremy. So I really appreciate you. Thanks. And, um, yeah, have a beautiful Sunday. 1:05:47 Happy Sunday, and we'll see you next time, fam. Thank you. Sounds good. [laughs]
