Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Yeah, man, I always love to try new things. 0:19 And, um, why not do an interview in a, not raging river, but [laughs] a river. It's a creek. You know- A creek... we're in the Boulder, uh, Boulder Creek here, and- We are... what, uh- [laughs] I love it. 0:32 No, no, no, this is great. When you mentioned, you know, you wanted to be creative with, uh, the placements and locations of where to be shot, because I want, you know, guests to be comfortable, obviously. 0:42 When they're comfortable, then they're more relaxed, they get more vulnerable, and we get great storytelling from- Yeah... our discussions. [laughs] Yeah. 0:49 And it- honestly, it's like we see so many podcasts, like, that are in studio, and it's like, you know, the right lighting, the podcast mics, like, all of that. I hate that. [laughs] And it's... 1:00 Yeah, I mean, it's nice, but it just gets boring. You know? It does. It's like, let's do something a little bit different and a little bit more fun. Yeah. Yeah. So that actually brings me to my first question. 1:09 How do you, how do you make it fun for your clients when you're working with them? How do I make it fun for my clients? Mm-hmm. So really it's about the energy that I bring to the set. Mm. 1:21 You know, having a good time, keeping it light. You know, it's like, sure, we might be working on a big project and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, but we're not saving lives. Like, nobody's in danger. 1:33 Like, we need to keep it fun and light. I mean, we all got into this at some way or another to be creative and to do something that we love. Mm. 1:42 And if we lose that on set, then it's like, "Okay, well, what are we, what are we doing here?" You know? 1:48 And I get that, yeah, people's careers are on the line, and jobs and all of that, but there's no reason why we can't make it fun. 1:56 So, you know, when possible, it's like we got music going on, we've got, you know, a light mood. Uh, I think one of the things that makes it more stressful is when you try to cram too much into the day. Mm. 2:12 So I like to have enough structure, but leave some room for some magic to happen, and then be able to capture that magic. 2:22 That sort of relaxes things, because as soon as it gets, "Okay, we gotta go to this and this and this and this and this," like- Too, too much structure. 2:30 [laughs] It's, one, it's too much structure, but it's also- But it's not fun. Yeah... it's so stressful. It's not- Right... it doesn't become fun. And there are times where, yeah, you have to get it all done, right? 2:39 Right. You know, you have to speed up, you have to slow down, but- Sure... you can't sprint the whole day, right? 2:45 You know, our days are 10, 12 hours, so if you're sprinting that whole time, you don't got very many days in you. So you have to be able to pace yourself, you have to be able to have some fun, um, and enjoy it. 2:59 You know, it's like working with the talent, finding real connection, real emotions. Uh, [laughs] I had one shoot- Sure. Yeah, sure... that, uh- Love it. [laughs] I know. It's so funny. Like- Yeah... 3:11 I had this shoot, uh, it was American Airlines, and we were, you know, on the plane, we're shooting. And, uh, I was just interacting with the, the talent, just doing stuff. 3:21 And my client, she looks over and she goes, "You're kind of a dork, aren't you?" [laughs] And I was like, "Yeah, kinda." Was she hitting on you? Let's be real. Uh, definitely not. Okay. Okay. [laughs] Uh, [laughs] no. 3:35 She's happily married, has several kids. Uh- Doesn't matter. No, I'm just kidding. [laughs] But, uh, but she w- it was- Yeah... she got to see another side of me that she- Okay... hadn't, you know, seen quite yet. Sure. 3:45 And that was just me being me- Mm... and not worrying about, you know, what I look like or- Yeah... what, how people are gonna perceive me. It's like, what, who do I need to be? What do I need to be in this moment- Mm... 3:59 to get the connection and the emotion out of the actors- Right... right, that's real and authentic? Um, so to answer your question, long story short, it's about mindset. Mm-hmm. It's about, like, 4:11 being intentional as to what I bring to set- Mm... uh, you know, each day, and, um, making it a clear intent to have fun. Fun. Yeah. Yeah. Emphasis on fun, too, because it's not fun why you're doing it. [laughs] Right. 4:25 Especially on a field like what you're doing, because you're essentially your own boss. You're in control. You're the director. Uh, you're the photographer. You, you, you're the DP. You do a lot of things. 4:37 You have a lot of hats that you have to wear. So to put emphasis on fun is a, a great way to, uh, believe in yourself. And once you believe in yourself, others will believe you. 4:49 And having that belief is the first step to anything, right? So emphasis on fun, emphasis on belief. 4:55 And my next question was, how do you, um, work with clients that, let's say, they don't have that fun factor, or, you know, it's like they're, they're a little rigid, or... 5:07 You know, I, because I'm sure you've come across those types of people. I don't like to classify people as types, but I feel like, you know, you've got some type As, type Bs, so forth. 5:18 So how do you work with, yeah, how do you work with, um, difficult clients when it comes to that? It's all about managing their expectations. Mm. And everybody is different, like you said. Like, 5:30 I try to show up authentically of, like, who I am at any given moment, but there are different communication styles for different people, right? 5:39 If they are more serious and things like that, like, making a joke at an inopportune moment is not the best thing, right? I am always trying to reduce friction for my clients, right? Right. 5:52 So if for them, it's like being a little bit more serious when we need to be, it's like, okay, let's be serious. Because at the end of the day, like- It can be very serious, right? Mm. 6:03 Like, there's, there's a lot at stake, you know? Deadlines need to be met. [laughs] Right, you know? Yeah. 6:09 And I get to be a good steward of their time, their money, their energy, and produce something that has actually an alignment with their goals and their vision. Mm. So, I don't really see them as difficult clients. 6:25 It's really just, like, okay, h- who do when I... Who do I need to be in this moment- Mm-hmm... to show up the most effectively? Okay. Right? Like- Right... that is, you know, what I'm asking myself all the time, right? 6:38 Like, what does this moment require of me? Mm. So, if I'm asking that, then it's like, oh, great, I just need to show up in a way that's effective for them. Right. Right. Yeah. 6:52 You always wanna be what's effective, what's not effective, and go for what's effective in business, right? There's no right or wrong, really. It's just what is effective. Yeah. So, I love that. I love that analysis. 7:02 Um, what's the number one thing that people get wrong when it comes to photography? What I would say... I mean, there's a lot that you can get wrong. [laughs] But- All right, give me a few then. [laughs] No. 7:20 No, I think it is only focusing on the technical. Mm. Right? Okay. Especially nowadays, it's fairly easy to take a technically good photograph, even a beautiful photograph. Mm. Right? 7:39 Who cares? Right. You know, that's the difference between good photography and great photography, is like, what does this mean, right? What is the emotion that you are trying to convey? 7:51 Does it confe- convey that emotion? Mm-hmm. Does it move people? 7:57 And when you're just focused on, like, okay, is it framed correctly, is it exposed correctly, like, is it technical, like, you can miss a lot of emotional nuance. That really is the powerful part of photography. 8:12 So, if you're just focused on the technical side of things, you're gonna miss the important aspect of photography. Because some of the best photographs aren't even in focus. Mm. True. You know? 8:25 But if it captures the right moment with the right emotion and tells the right story that you're trying to share, then it's successful. 8:35 So, don't get too bogged down on, like, is this technically perfect, and, like, is this beautiful? Yes, we're trying to create beautiful work, right? Like, I didn't train most of my life to create bad art. Right. 8:50 [laughs] You know? But even for me, sometimes I have to step outside of, like, yes, this photo is technically better- Mm-hmm... but this photo moves me more, and I'm gonna go with that one. 9:05 So, how does it make you feel, essentially- Yeah... when it comes down to it? And I know a lot of photographers, they get hung up with the equipment too. Right. And I'm like, it's even not about the gear. It's not. 9:17 Uh, gear helps, right? You know? Sure. Like, but it's about what it is that you're photographing, your intention behind it, the skill behind it, you know, and years and years of experience too, right? Like- Mm-hmm... 9:31 you could give me an iPhone, and I can take a way better photograph than somebody that has all the equipment in the world that's just starting out- Mm-hmm... or hasn't quite figured out everything. Right. So, like, 9:46 the best camera is the one you have on you. I've heard that- [laughs] Yeah... multiple times, in many ways and many places. Um, yeah, I think having an eye is definitely important. On... 9:58 Elliott Erwitt, you know, he's a famous photographer- Mm-hmm... I think Magnum photographer, he always had this saying is, like, you wanna be in front of interesting things, obviously, when you're making photographs. 10:09 If you're standing in front of interesting, you know, ideas or, or themes or, or happenings, events, your photos will be interesting. [laughs] You know, like, oh, that's so common sense. Yeah. 10:20 You gotta be in front of interesting things, obviously, to make it impactful, to make it that you feel something. So, I definitely resonate with that. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. 10:28 So, tell me, how did you get started with photography? Like, was it back in college, high school? Like, how did this all start, your passion? Yeah. It's kind of a long story. I'll try to keep it- [laughs]... 10:39 as short as possible. Yeah, you're good. We just started. But I- Yeah... you know, even as a young kid, like, I had a little Ninja Turtles point and shoot camera. Like, the film, it's 35 millimeter film. 10:51 It came in, like, this cartridge- Cool... uh, that you'd stick in there, and I was always, you know, taking photos of that. And then in middle school, I took my mom's 35 millimeter Nikon N2000. 11:06 [laughs] And I still remember it. I still have it. Cool. Um, and I taught myself- Mm... really how to shoot. My mom knew the basics, and, like, she had shot a bunch of stuff. 11:17 Uh, but it was more, you know, hobby kind of thing. So, this was before, you know, YouTube or anything like that. Uh, and I just took rolls of film, and I was... just started playing. Like, what does this do? 11:30 What does this do? How do you expose? And kind of taught myself for the most part. Wow. And then I didn't actually take a photography class until college, and I, in fact, tried not to do photography. 11:48 Really? Why is that? Uh, I s- got accepted to Columbia College in Chicago for their photography department. Oh, cool. And it was... Yeah, it was a really, like- Yeah... I felt very honored- Mm-hmm... and very, like-... 12:03 you know, proud of myself 'cause I had never taken a class before, right? Right. And here's this really amazing art school that was like, "Yeah, you're good enough to come do this." Mm-hmm. 12:13 And I was enrolled in all the classes, and it was literally a few weeks before school, school started that I kinda looked at it, I was like, "How the hell am I gonna pay off this loan?" 12:28 'Cause it was, like, 40 grand a year. Mm. And at the time, like, collectively my parents made about that. And I didn't really know how to make money as a photographer. Like, I had... 12:43 I mean, I just didn't really have any clue what the world was really like. Mm-hmm. So I started, so I decided not to go, and I went to a state school in Missouri, cheaper education, and I started pre-med. 12:59 I thought, "Maybe I can just be a photographer as a, you know, a hobby," 'cause that's what it was at that point, right? It was a hobby, and I really enjoyed biomedical sciences. I wanted, I was into sports. Mm. 13:12 So I was like, "Oh, I'll do, like, sports medicine. Like, I'll work with athletes, you know, on the sidelines at football games," all that kind of stuff. Cool. And luckily, I had a, 13:25 this moment of awareness about a year and a half in. I was, like, walking to class and, you know, it, time kinda slowed down and I, it hit me of this question is like, "What are you doing?" Mm. 13:39 I think I had left, like, a chemistry class or something, and it was like, "What the fuck?" [laughs] Yeah. And so I really had to sit with myself for a moment and ask, like, "Why am I going down this path? 13:51 Like, really, truly, why?" Mm. And I found that I was doing it for safety and security. Mm. It was the, I knew, easy path, right? I knew I could make money being a doctor and doing that path, 14:08 but it wasn't my passion. Sure. So at that point, I decided to quit that direction. Mm-hmm. Uh, I didn't instantly choose photography. I tried, you know, psychology. 14:22 I tried, um, a few different, you know, things, philosophy, and, like, really loved a lot of it. But ultimately, it was like, "You know what? I'm gonna try this photography. I'm gonna choose a life of passion." Mm. 14:36 "Because I know that will bring me joy and happiness. Whether I'm a poor, starving artist the rest of my life, it doesn't matter. I'm gonna chase my passion." 14:46 And I'm really glad [laughs] that I chose that, 'cause there's no way that I could have imagined my life and the things that I've gotten to experience because of that decision. Mm. And so I started 15:01 photography, went through the art program. It was all film. Uh- Wow... I had one digital class. It was my senior year. I worked, at the time, learning digital through 15:14 photographing for the university for their publications department. Mm-hmm. So I shot concerts, banquets- Cool... sporting events, like, portraits- Yeah... like, everything. Love it. 15:24 And then I also did freelance photography for the local newspaper. Mm. That's where I learned photography, like, the, the world of, like, commercial photography and shooting for other people and shooting digital. 15:39 Um- Cool... I still didn't really know where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do. Yeah. And then 15:46 my senior year, second senior year, 'cause I'd started late, uh, I realized all the photographers that we were studying in school, even though they did a lot of fine art, they all did commercial work. Mm. 16:00 And so I kind of had this aha moment that was, "If I wanna be the best photographer that I can be- Mm-hmm... this is the direction I need to go." Mm. 16:12 So I told my professors, who all wanted me to go get my, my BFA and become a teacher in an art gallery, you know, photographer. And- Yeah... I was like, "I'm gonna go commercial route." And they're like, "Good luck." 16:25 They're like, "We don't know how to help you." Mm. So I started, after I finished school, I knew the name of one commercial studio- Mm-hmm... in St. Louis, and I moved there. 16:37 I slept on a friend's couch, uh, for a couple of months [laughs] before- Wow... I moved into, like, a closet. 16:45 But I showed up at the studio and I said, "Hey, I don't know anything about this world, but I wanna get involved. I wanna learn. How do I jump in?" Mm. They're like, "Well, you can assist." I'm like, "Great. 16:54 What is that?" You know, so it was, like, photo assisting. Mm-hmm. Actually, the first gig I got was painting a brick wall for a Michelob Ultra commercial. Interesting. And I learned that doing theater in high school. 17:10 So it was, like, pulling all of these things that I had learned and all of these different techniques. And then they were like, "Oh, great. We love you." They started hiring me, and then, uh, 17:20 did freelance that way for about a year and a half, and then a production company in Dallas found me up in St. Louis, offered me a full-time position. 17:31 So I moved down to Dallas, uh, worked for that pr- production company for two and a half years as the lighting DP, you know, edited. I did a ton of different stuff. 17:42 But we traveled around the world, worked with major brands. Wow. Like, I really learned. I owe a lot to that studio, Stuart Cohen Productions. Yeah. Uh, Stuart Cohen Pictures, actually. 17:55 Uh, you know, he's been in the industry for longer than I've been alive. So I- Oh, wow... learned a lot from him. And when I left in 2015 to start my own thing- 18:06 Like, it was like, "Oh, I've been through every scenario you could think of. Like, I'm ready to start rocking and rolling." Wow. So you started your own production company in 2015? Yeah. Okay. Like, the end of 2015. 18:19 End of 2015. Yeah. Beginning of 2016. And what gave you the courage to do that? Why didn't you just keep working with this guy? I always knew that I was gonna do my own thing. Okay. 18:30 Uh, I wanted to learn as much as I could from people that came before me- Mm... and understand the business, how to work with clients, how to run a set, how to manage a production company, how to really 18:44 do the business side of photography. Right. And learned a ton about actually working in photography as well. [laughs] But it was, it was time. Mm. You know, by the time I, you know, told him, he was... 18:57 He knew it be- Right. Oh, wow... before I could even say anything. You know, I took him out to drinks and- Yeah... I was like, "Hey, let's have a chat." And he was like, "It's time." So- Mm-hmm... 19:08 it was kind of, you know, the cycle, right? Like, he knew I wasn't gonna be there forever, but he took the time to train me, to help me, to teach me everything he knew- Right... about, you know, the business. 19:20 And so very grateful for that opportunity and- Yeah... glad that I got to learn that way. That is so cool. So when you first started your business, how was that experience like? Uh, it was intense, right? Oh. 19:34 You know, it's a huge leap of faith. Um- Mm-hmm. I can imagine. Yeah. [laughs] Have you ever run a business before then, by the way? No. 19:41 So this is your first time actually running a business before you started- First time, yeah... entrepreneurship, here we go. Yeah. [laughs] Just diving headfirst. Oh, wow. And I had spent all of the money [laughs] 19:52 that I had on, you know, some cameras and a- Mm-hmm... little bit of lighting equipment. Yeah. Um, so by the... You know, I left, you know, middle of 2015. 20:03 By the end of that year, I'd spent all of my money on camera gear. Oof. At the end of the year, I had $30 in my pocket- Okay... and my cameras. So scary. [laughs] And that was it. Wow. And 20:19 it was, but I didn't leave myself a backup plan. I told myself- Mm... like, I'm not gonna get a side job. I'm not going to 20:26 do anything that's gonna distract me from my mission and, like, my vision and what I'm working towards. Mm. And I just, like, whatever it took. Yeah. And I took some assisting jobs. 20:38 I, you know, did photography jobs, some directing stuff. And it, you know, the first year started to slowly build. Right. And then I started working with American Airlines on some small projects. Mm-hmm. 20:53 Did really well with that, so they gave me bigger and bigger projects. Nice. And then, yeah, the next five or so years, everything just kind of doubled after that. Mm. Like, it just, new opportunities. 21:04 Uh, and it was putting myself in uncomfortable situations and- Right... a unbelievable belief in myself that I could do it. Mm. Right? 21:16 There was so many opportunities that I had, but I didn't have, like, the experience and the portfolio to back it up, right? But I knew that I could do it. Right. 21:28 And luckily, I had some people that took a chance, you know, on me and gave me a shot. Hmm. Said, "Okay, I believe you." 21:37 And then when I delivered on that, then it was like, "Okay, great," and then kept going on from there. So I mean, they've... American Airlines has been one of my clients, yeah, since then, since 2016- Mm... 2017. 21:51 So- Have they been one of your biggest clients, or Yeah. I've worked with about 25 global brands- Okay... uh, over my career, and they are one of the most consistent, uh, people. Wow. 22:04 And I'm really grateful, and a lot of it, you know, is I understand their brand, what it is that they're trying to do, and I work well with their crew, and I make it easy as possible, you know, for them, and we get a lot done in a short amount of time. 22:21 And- Mm... uh, it's shooting on airplanes, and shooting in hangars and in airports, it's a unique set of challenges. I can imagine. [laughs] And, you know, having that experience helps, you know, keep coming back. 22:35 But they just- Yeah... they love working with me and how I work and what I can deliver for them, so. No, I love that. Yeah. 22:46 Um, as you were continuing your career, um, share with me some highlights of some brands that you really, really enjoyed working with. And, um, yeah, tell me some stories about working with them. Yeah. 22:59 So I mean, American has been amazing. We've done a ton of, like, great shoots. We've shot all over the US, you know, even shot in Brazil. Wow. Uh, a couple of times, actually. Oh, wow. Uh, once we went down to Carnival. 23:14 Uh, we took a bunch of influencers down there and- No way... uh, running around. It, it, that was a wild experience. We had to have- Yeah... I hired a security team, 'cause there's, you know, 23:26 millions of extra people running around, and it's not the, the safest- Oh... especially when you're running around with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of camera gear. Sure, sure. So, like, we- Okay... 23:36 and they were amazing, right? And we had a, you know, a translator there that would take us around and, like- Right... show us. And, you know, that was such a, a wild, fun experience. That was really cool. Um- Cool... 23:50 done a lot of work with Toyota. Okay. Uh, Toyota and Lexus as well. And the first job I ever did with Toyota was the 2018 Olympics. Ooh. Yeah. Fun? It was awesome. My friend Chris Whitten, he was 24:05 on, like, a short-term contract with the agency. Mm-hmm. And he used to be my producer. We worked together back at Stewart's and then- Uh, we freelanced together. Yeah. 24:17 Then he got a job, uh, there at the agency, and he called me, he's like, "What are you doing in February?" It was like January. I was like, "Well, I don't have anything booked yet." He goes, "Okay, keep it open." Mm. 24:27 So we ended up spending five or six weeks in Korea, uh, shooting the Olympics and the Paralympics. What? So cool. Uh, going around with all the Toyota-sponsored athletes doing interviews. Mm-hmm. And it was wild. 24:40 It was an amazing experience. It was- Yeah... really cold. It was, you know, minus 15 degrees- Wow... most days. Wait, it was the Winter Olympics? Yeah, Winter Olympics. Yikes. Okay. I was gonna say summer, man. 24:51 That sounds way nicer. [laughs] Yeah. You- Summer would've been nice. Uh- It would've been way better. Yeah... but the Win- I mean, it was such a cool experience. Mm. 24:59 And even just to be at the Olympics, the energy there is unlike anything- Oh, I bet... else. Yeah. 'Cause it's so multicultural. Right. And it's all there in celebration of the best athletes in the world. 25:13 Of course, yeah. You know? So there's- Best of the best. [laughs] Yeah. And it's like you root for your athletes and your country- Sure... but then if they get out, you root for another one. And it's like- Mm... 25:22 just a giant celebration of human potential, and it's, it's a really cool atmosphere to be a part of. Uh, so I'm very- It is... grateful for that experience. And- Wow... you know, I've done, 25:37 I've filmed in 23 different countries. Uh, Australia, New Zealand- Wow... all over Europe, Asia. I have not been to Africa yet. Really? That is, yeah. That's amazing. I know. That's on, that's on the list. 25:52 Uh- How about Antarctica? Not Antarctica either. Okay. So not that continent. Uh- Okay... but- [laughs]... um, I'm sure it's coming. Yeah? You know? Who knows? Okay. You gotta see those penguins. Come on. Right? 26:04 [laughs] Um- I heard they're really friendly. [laughs] Yeah, I mean, like, there's, back actually when I, one of my most memorable ones- Mm... was actually back when I worked with Stuart. 26:17 We shot for Herradura Tequila, and we were like four days- Mm... on the hacienda. Okay. We filmed from sunrise to sunset and- Yeah. Wow... I had the best taco I ever had. Oh, no way. 26:32 [laughs] And, and it was mainly because of the story, right? Mm. And it was, we were up before the sunrise and we were out in the fields. The sun's coming up over the hills, sunrise. 26:44 We're getting, uh, the guys cutting the agave up in the fields, and it's like the most gorgeous footage. Mm. And then about 9:00, they all stop and they make breakfast. 26:55 So you can see like these like plumes of smoke all over like the fields, and they use old agave leaves and they put them on a, um, on the ground and make a fire. Mm-hmm. 27:08 And they're, I mean, we're way out in Tequila, Mexico, and like they don't speak any English. My Spanish is horrendous. So we couldn't really communicate. Mm-hmm. 27:18 But at one point, you know, they're making breakfast and they motion like, "Hey, come join us." Mm-hmm. Right? 27:25 So we put our cameras down and we sat around the fire and we made tacos and we enjoyed this breakfast together. And we couldn't communicate with words, but our emotions, our presence- Mm... 27:39 and just being able to have this very human experience with other cultures and like, it was such a beautiful setting and like experience with these people. And it was, yeah, the best taco I ever had. 27:56 Like I'll never forget that- [laughs]... that taco and- Yeah... you know, a lot of it was, yeah, just because of where it was and- Right... you know, an experience that most people will never get to experience. 28:08 Not just the tacos, but being in the fields like that. Right. Right. Of course. That's not something that's open to the public. No. You know? 28:16 We get to see behind the scenes of a lot of different industries and get to see- Right... some stuff that nobody else really gets to experience, and like getting behind the scenes of the Olympics, you know, is one. 28:27 You know? And- Right... it's such a cool vantage point to learn and to meet people. And, um, yeah, I'm just very, very grateful for the opportunities that I've gotten. Definitely. I love that. 28:41 So was most of your productions around events, or was it more focused, like can you share with me, I guess, the types of shoots that you've done and- Yeah. So my work consists of some TV commercials. Okay. 28:55 You know, online commercials, print advertising, some billboards- Okay... um, outdoor signages, some magazine work. Okay. That kind of stuff. Right. Uh, so it kind of runs the gamut between storytelling. 29:07 A lot of what we do is library shoots. Hmm. So one of the things I do is I shoot for Vail Resorts. 29:16 Vail and Toyota have a partnership, and so we'll take a bunch of trucks and talent up into the mountains and we'll photograph either winter, we'll either snowboard to a location or we'll drive the trucks up and, you know, do hiking and mountain biking and all of that kind of stuff. 29:34 Uh, and we get a ton of footage and a ton of still imagery for them, so they get to use it on their social media. 29:42 Like if you go to Vail and you see any sort of like sign or like billboard or poster or anything like that, like there's a 98% chance that I shot that. Wow. And- Cool... and it's all over their 36 different, 30:01 uh, resorts across the country. So there are unique challenges with that because you can't shoot at every one, so you have to shoot at a few, and they use that regionally. So you kind of have to make it 30:14 ambiguous as to where you are. Mm-hmm. But also not too ambiguous that it's like- Hey, that was shot on the East Coast and we're on the West Coast, you know, kind of thing. Gotcha. Um- Gotcha... 30:27 so some narrative stuff, a lot of library work. Um, yeah, not a ton of event stuff- Mm... uh, to be honest. Like, uh- Okay, so the Olympics was kind of a- That was kind of a-... special case... 30:39 yeah, it was a special case. Okay. Like, after that, like we did a lot with the Olympic athletes, and then shot a lot of cars. Like, I got to shoot the Supra when it- Oh, cool... first came out. Nice. 30:50 So I was one of the first people to ever see it, like- Oh, no way... before, like, it was released or anything like that. Wow. So, like, doing that is really cool. Man. I've done that with a few different cars. Mm-hmm. 31:01 And that's such a really interesting, like, and fun experience to- Yeah... kind of peek behind the curtain. Right. No, that's fascinating. I think... 31:12 Well, when someone says commercial too, it's like, that can cover a gambit- Totally... of things, so it's like, it's nice to hear the types too, because when you break it down like that, I'm like, "That's- that's a lot." 31:23 You know? Like, h- how long do your shoots usually last typically? Uh, they're typically a few days. Okay. You know, we typically are shooting two to three days. You know, every once in a while have a one-day shoot. 31:34 Mm-hmm. But for the most part, you know, could be a week long. Oh, wow. Uh- Okay... and, you know, there's a lot of preparation that goes into them, and then of course post-production. 31:44 So one project could last months- Right... you know, working on it. Right. Yeah. It's a lot. [laughs] Yeah. 31:52 And so do you do, like, everything from start to finish, or do you work with other people, like, that are on your team, or how do you... Do you mostly facilitate or...? I guess it took kind of a build-up, right? 32:05 It did take a build-up. When I first started, I was doing- Everything, right? [laughs]... those things. And then- Right. [laughs] Right, I forgot. Yeah, most entrepreneurs have to do that, right? Right. Yeah. 32:13 [laughs] And now I d- I delegate as much as I possibly can. Sure. Uh, so I don't really do any of the editing or the retouching- Okay... anymore, especially on these big projects, because there are better... 32:26 people that are way better at it than I am. Sure. You know, 32:30 that is another thing that's elevated my work, is being able to hire really skilled, qualified people to create something together that we couldn't create alone. Mm. You know? 32:42 And I loved, and still love being the dumbest person in the room. Of course. Right? 32:49 It's like, I get to, you know, direct everybody and pull everybody together, and push people to go kind of beyond what they think is possible and what their limitations are. 33:01 And sometimes it's a, a little bit of a friction, right? When, you know, an editor hands you something back and they're very proud of it, and you have to go, "This is great, but it's not there yet." 33:11 [laughs] "Here's what we need to change." Like, when I first started out- Oh, got it... and first started delegating, that was really difficult. Okay. And even just to be able to communicate 33:21 what my vision is, what the client's vision is- Okay... to somebody else that's editing, to have them understand it and give it- The vision and- You know?... so everyone's on the same page, yeah... that's a whole 33:32 dance in itself, right? So talk to me more- So-... about this, then. H- how did you overcome this challenge, then, of trying to get everyone on the same page? [laughs] A lot of- I think this is important. 33:42 [laughs] Yeah, a lot of trial and error. Right. And a few experiences where I had to put myself in that uncomfortable situation- Mm-hmm... 33:54 and overcome that people pleaser of myself, where somebody, you know, an editor handed me something and I was like, "This is good work. Like, it really is, but it's not it." 34:06 And being able to communicate what wasn't right about it- Mm... and what I thought could be better was a challenge. And I could see it on, like, the defeatedness, right? 'Cause they were- See it in their face, yeah... 34:22 very, you know, proud of what it is that they had- They spent so much time and energy... right, and delivered. Right. And I had to stand in that knowing that it could be better. Right. Right? And 34:34 they came back, and it was. Like, they gave me exactly what I needed. Mm-hmm. And they luckily reflected to me how challenging it was for them- Mm-hmm... to go back and to make all these edits and to shift, 34:49 and to push themselves a little bit farther. Mm. And they also described how beautiful it was and how much they grew from that situation. Mm. They're like, "This is some of my best work." 35:06 And neither one of us would've gotten there if I hadn't pushed. Right. You know? So- So they were grateful. Yes. 35:15 [laughs] So that gave me the confidence to really speak what I know is true, and, like, to stand in my knowing that, hey, this can be better, and I know that you can make it better. Uh- Mm... 35:30 and believe in them, too, right? Mm-hmm. And then give them that creative freedom and the, the ability to show up, you know? Yeah. And, like, believe in that. Mm. So 35:46 once I did that, then it w- it became easier, for sure. Yeah. But there was a lot of trial and error, too, with, you know, being on set. You know, there is- Mm... a lot happening 36:01 in your mind when you're photographing or directing or, in my case, doing both. 36:07 Uh, especially when you're directing in stills, it's two different ways of thinking that you're trying to hold these perspectives simultaneously. But then you also have, you know, a bunch of talent on set. 36:20 You could have 20 talent on set. You've got 5 or 10 clients on set. You've got the agency on set. Mm-hmm. You've got crew. You got lighting, hair and makeup. You got wardrobe. Mm. You got props. 36:30 You have all of these people- That are looking to you, like, "What's next? What's going on?" So you have to really hold the space, hold the energy of that space- Mm-hmm... and still focus on the objectives, right? 36:45 Mm-hmm. Still focus on what's the end goal, what are we trying to accomplish here, what are we trying to say here, not just the technical aspects of things. So trusting your team is a huge part of that. Mm-hmm. 37:02 When I was first starting out, I didn't quite know how to communicate. I didn't know how to trust people. It would be... It's just faster for me to do it, right? Right. Right. Yeah. You know? 37:10 So I had to, like, "No, they're here-" For a reason. Yeah... for a reason. Mm-hmm. They have an expertise. Mm-hmm. So I learned to be less nitpicky also. Mm-hmm. 37:23 Like, if I'm working with a gaffer, a lighting person, if somebody's not l- Yeah... doesn't know. Yeah. I tell them the im- 37:31 w- what I want it to look like, what I want it to feel like, where I want the main light coming from. Right. And I'm not gonna tell them what tool to use. Mm. Right? 37:44 I'm not gonna say, "Oh, you have to use this specific light here and that and that." No. Let them be the creative in their world to figure out the best possible way, and then that takes that stress off of me, right? 37:57 Right. Now I'm not worrying about- [laughs]... all the technical aspects- Right... of things. Yeah. I'm worrying about the big vision. I'm worrying about the emotion of it. Mm-hmm. 38:06 And then I can go work with the talent, right? I can work with the camera department- You can do other things... whoever else. Yeah. You can do- Yeah. So it's- Trusting, sounds like. [laughs] It's trusting, yeah. 38:15 That's amazing. It's really trusting your team. Mm. If you don't trust your team, like, you're not gonna get anywhere. Right. Um- Right... and subsequently, like, your clients have to trust you, right? That's true. 38:27 My clients ha- I have to build trust with them- Yeah... that they know, "Hey, if I give you $250,000, are you going to give me the product that I want? Are you gonna be a good steward of that money?" Mm. 38:41 Uh, is it going to be an enjoyable experience? Right. Right? 'Cause you could deliver on something- Mm... but you could make it hell for them, right? Right. That's not gonna keep them coming back. No. 38:54 So there was a lot... You know, I've been doing this for a long time now. Over 10 years, right? 10 years with this- Yeah... company. I've been, you know, photographing since 2007 professionally. Gotcha. 39:07 So I'm- I've got a lot of experience. So right now, I'm even working and mentoring photographers and directors to learn how to do just that. Nice. 39:17 How to manage a set, how to direct a set, how to hold all these different perspectives when photographing or when filming, and how to communicate your vision, how to sell yourself to the clients. Uh, because there's 39:35 a big difference between being a really good home chef or being a really good photographer that you can take really good photographs- Mm... and running a Michelin Star restaurant. Oh, massive difference. Yeah. 39:50 It's a huge difference. Mm-hmm. You know, even working as a photographer and working with a crew of, you know, two or three different people- Mm-hmm... to going to a crew of 30 people, it's a massive difference. Right. 40:04 And there's so many more moving pieces, so many more people, uh, that you get to coordinate. And, like, you need the right help. You need the right, uh, assistant directors, too, to help manage. 40:16 You need the right producer to help you with the logistics of things and keep keeping things on budget and helping with the clients and all of that. So 40:26 there's just so much that unless you've been in it, you really have no idea. So- Mm-hmm... I wanna impart that wisdom that I've learned on- Totally... to others who wanna learn. Yeah, that's true. 40:40 Um, so where do you find most people, or I would say most photographers, fail when they're starting to learn all these things since you're kind of more, I guess, in a mentoring stage now? Not being curious enough. Okay. 40:55 That's a good one. Yeah. I think that there is always... I'm still learning. Mm. Right? Like, I was reading stuff today on how to tell stories better. Mm. You know, I'm continually learning. And 41:08 so being open that you don't know everything, and being okay that you don't know everything, right? It's like, I don't need to know every new camera, you know? 41:19 [laughs] I, when I direct, I'm hiring a DP that's, "Hey, I have a look that we wanna go for," and all that. Like, all the technical, like this camera and this setting and th- th- it could... It's a rabbit hole, right? 41:34 Let them, let the expert be the expert- Mm-hmm... in that. And so being able to trust, being able to, yeah, say that you don't know and ask for help. Mm. 41:50 And then I think one of the biggest things that photographers fail at starting out is they make it about themselves. Right. Right? It's about their vision or their work or their this and that. Mm-hmm. 42:07 And it's not about that at all. It's about the client. Mm-hmm. Right? My job is to align with their vision and their mission and their values, their outcomes, what it is that they're trying to do, align myself with that, 42:24 and then create something that says what we want it to say and gets them the outcome that they want, right? Yeah. I'm not really a part of that. Like, I'm providing a service-... to my clients. Mm-hmm. 42:39 It's not about me. Right. There's a lot of photographers that make it about them, and it's their show, and all that stuff. And it's like- Mm... it annoys the shit out of clients, for one. I bet. I bet. 42:51 [laughs] And it's not in the highest good for themselves or for their clients. Mm-hmm. And the 43:02 coherence of the energy and what they're trying to s- say and do gets muddied, and then the final product isn't as good as what it could be. Right. No, that's a great point. I think more and more 43:20 focusing on the client's needs above all else, that's the biggest reason they hired you. You're a service company. I like what you said earlier about you're stewarding, you're a steward with 43:31 what they want, their vision, and you show up as a steward, serving, and then in return, they get something beautiful from this experience that you created, from aligning yourself with your team and creating, yeah, just magic. 43:47 And I love that you said earlier about storytelling too, of being a better storyteller, 'cause that's a big reason, I think, why clients hire you, is because you tell great stories in a visual medium. 43:59 And so, uh, and I know portfolio plays a massive part in that. [laughs] That is your past work. So, share with me a little bit about your specific type of storytelling, because I feel like everyone has a story to tell. 44:12 Everyone's a different storyteller too. And so when someone describes you, your, your type of storytelling experience, what do you think best defines that as, you know, as a natural storyteller yourself? Yeah. So, 44:29 a lot of things inform the way that I tell stories. Mm-hmm. My photojournalistic background informs that a lot. Mm-hmm. So, showing up on assignment, sometimes I would get, "Hey, show up here at this time." 44:48 And very quickly, I'd have to figure out, okay, where am I? You know, who is here? Why is everybody here? Who's the important people? Who's the audience? Like, what is happening? What's the story here? 45:03 And, like, really quickly figure out, okay, what's, what's important, what's not important, how do I tell this story, right, in one image, reverse it, or a couple of images, right? And 45:18 so being able to align really quickly through photojournalism has helped me a lot. Mm. 45:24 So, the way that I tell stories, you know, and I've said this for a long time, and now it's, like, this big buzzword of authenticity, right? [laughs] Be authentic, right? We'll, we'll get to that later. 45:34 Create authentic content, you know? [laughs] Right. It's like, how do you actually do that? Right. Right. And I don't think most people have any clue. No, they don't. For me, I like to be in the presence of somebody. 45:47 Say even if something as simple as, like, taking a portrait of somebody, right? Mm-hmm. You could tell them where to put their arms, and put their, like, position here, and turn your head here, and smile, and, you know. 45:59 Yeah. It becomes a performance, right, and not actually something real. So, I like to, kinda like what I said before, is I create a- enough structure for 46:14 the, you know, things to keep moving, but allow space for magic. Mm-hmm. And for me, I'm wanna connect to what's really here, and I connect through that through my heart, not through my mind, right? 46:29 And 'cause that's what's gonna move people, right, is the emotional connection to it. So, if I'm not emotionally connected to the situation, the scene, the story, why is the audience gonna be? Right. 46:45 You know, if I'm thinking about it logically all of the time, technically- Mm-hmm... then that's all it's gonna be. It's gonna be a technically good piece, you know, but it's not gonna actually move anybody. 46:56 So, I like to give myself permission to, like, be in the space with somebody. Yeah. Experience it, and then it's like, okay, what's really here? And even with working with talent, right, it's, 47:13 you can't just tell somebody to smile, right, or be sad, right? Right. They have to actually experience what that real emotion is. Mm. 47:20 And oftentimes, that comes from me modeling that emotion, me connecting to what that emotion really is- Yeah... 47:27 what it feels like, or giving them a real scenario that they get to connect to something real in their life, that they get to connect emotionally to them. So, that makes a massive difference in storytelling, right? And 47:46 almost like a, like a museum curator, right? There's, like, all of these different stories, right? Right. And it's like, which one do you tell, right? Mm-hmm. And which one do you put together? Yeah. 47:58 Knowing the bigger picture, right? It's like knowing the exhibit. What is this exhibit about? Right? Then I can start to put the stories, the different stories together that tell an even bigger picture. Mm. 48:15 And I do that with storytelling and with my clients. If I don't understand the bigger picture, the bigger why behind what we're doing, it's really hard for me to connect to the story. 48:27 But if I can connect to the bigger picture, 48:32 as big, as, as wide as I can go, then all the details I can fill in, like, oh, this fits, this fits, this doesn't fit, this doesn't fit, and then you end up with something that's cohesive and coherent. 48:44 And authentic to what it is that you're trying to do and accomplish. Does that answer the question? It, it does. It does. So it sounds like emotionally charged- It's definitely-... storytelling... 48:55 emotionally charged, yeah. It's got to. That's kinda your type of storytelling- Yeah... is the best way to describe it. Yeah. To distill it down, yeah, it's gotta be emotional. Um- Emotionally charged, yeah... 49:05 because without that, you know, people don't move without emotion, right? Even if you- Sure... like, literally what an emotion is, is to get your body to move and to react to a situation. Mm-hmm. 49:20 Chemically, that's what it... So it's like- A feeling... actually causing movement- Yeah, right... in your system. Right. Right? Without that, like, there is no, there's no connection and there's no movement. 49:30 It's a human emotion. Yeah. And without that feeling, this is what separates us from AI- [laughs] Totally... in so many ways, right? This is why I think AI's never gonna take your job, or my job- [laughs]... 49:42 for that matter. Because you need that human factor, 49:46 and, um, I absolutely love what you said earlier about having, like, choosing your type of story based off this archive set of story, stories that you can choose, and these different styles, right? 49:59 Because you've been working in storytelling for 10 plus years, so you know how to tell a story in so many different, you know, facets, so many- Yeah... different avenues. So for you to actually be picky [laughs] 50:13 now, um, and, and really, or, or I guess hone in on, on what you really, really enjoy and what you r- what, what sparks joy, and that was kind of my next question too, was, like, what sparks you joy, like really deep joy, when you're in the whole process, right? 50:30 Like, if you were to pick one, one part of the, the, the process that you do, because you do a lot from start to finish with a client. 50:37 But if there, there was something specific within that whole process, what, what sparks the most joy out of the whole process of what you do with your clients? 50:55 There's a few things. When somebody sees the work- Mm... and they say, "That's what I had in my mind." That's cool. 51:12 [laughs] Or, or, "That's even better than what I pieced together in my head. Whatever I imagined it could be." Ooh, okay. Right? So the client's feedback, maybe? Or- So the feedback, but it's not, like, 51:27 the reward of that. Like, what really gets me is I was able to really connect with that person- Mm-hmm... and with their vision and what it is that they really wanted to create, and I helped them create that. Mm. 51:44 So it's not necessarily their reaction or their praise, but it's the confirmation that I was present and I connected with somebody, and 51:58 I think that's one of the most beautiful parts about photography, is being present with what is- Mm-hmm... and being a reflection of that, right? 52:12 Having a photographer's eye is saying, like, here's a, a huge landscape or lots of different things that we could be focused on. Mm-hmm. Focus on this. Mm. This part is important, right? 52:28 Be present with this little piece of it. Mm-hmm. Right? 52:32 And if you can be present with that, like, there's so much joy and love in there, 'cause it is such a, you're connecting with that person, with the talent, with whatever it is, but, like, that real presence is what sparks me the most joy. 52:49 Um, yeah. It sounds like the relationship- Yeah, for sure... like, component within the whole process- Yeah... is what you most enjoy. Yeah. That's cool. No, I love that. I love that. 53:02 That, that brings me joy, listening to you saying that, because that's a big part of why I do what I do, too, um, especially when we do these interviews, you know? Because I'm all focused, I'm aligned with my guest. 53:15 And so, um, when I know I have a, an amazing question, which honestly it's spon- spontaneity, like a lot of the question I have are either follow-ups or listening intently to your responses, and then flipping that in such a way where I'm like, "Oh, I don't think I've ever asked that question before," and then have you answer it, and then come up with a response that I'm like, "That's amazing, and I think that's something that the audience would really enjoy." 53:40 And so that's what sparks joy for me- Yeah... as well, so I like your answer on that. Thank you. Cool. Yeah, that was amazing. Yeah, I mean, being, being present, right? It's just like with- Yeah... what is, right? 53:50 Mm-hmm. And that's how you can tell a great story, right? Right. And it's like, where is this taking us? Where is this leading us? 53:56 And as, you know, you can kind of guide and, you know, direct, you know, however you wanna go, but- Right. [laughs]... um, allowing what's there to come up- Mm... and to make itself known- Right... 54:13 you know, is part of the storytelling process. Right. You know? If, if I have too much of an agenda, then I'm, I could miss what's really there and what's really- That's true... important. 54:27 I think being open-minded plays a massive role. Yeah. You have to be open. Mm-hmm. Uh, especially when you're telling somebody else's story. You're telling your story, like, tell it however you want. Sure. 54:40 But when you're telling somebody else's story, like, you have to be present with what's actually there and what's real, and- Be open to shifting 54:53 and be open to redirecting where it naturally wants to go. Mm. Being a good listener. 100%. [laughs] Feel like that's something our culture lacks- Yeah... in today's, [laughs] I guess, society in such a way. 55:10 But I'm, I'm like, I'm meeting more and more people like you that are aligned with actively listening to their clients' needs or to people in general, and being really receptive and being open to, um, the possibilities, because they really are endless. 55:25 If you think about, think about how, how, like, self-serving you can be, because then you gather more information about that person- Mm-hmm... and then you're really able to help, right? 55:40 Because we're all, at the end of the day, I'm, I'm a big believer in we're here on this earth to help each other out. Yep. 55:45 We're here on this earth to really serve, like you said, be stewards, but have this like, um, helping, help mentality of, what can I do to serve you? What problem can I solve, right? We're supposed to be problem-solvers. 56:00 Oh, yeah. And, um, I just feel like we're, we're kinda losing that essence. Well, I find more and more. 56:05 Maybe I'm just, depends on where you're at, but then you meet people like you that, like, understand it 'cause this is what you've always done. Mm-hmm. 56:14 This is what you will be doing in the future, and I feel like that really comes to your zone of ge- genius as well, of like your authentic self. 56:24 And I'm a big believer, and I wanna come back to this au- authenticity question you said earlier about, like, what makes you authentic, 'cause from what I found out, and I, I was listening to this podcast of all things, right? 56:35 And this, um, guest was stating clearly about the reason why people are not authentic is because they're not aligned with their purpose. That's basically it. That's the truest definition I have heard about authenticity. 56:50 And to, you know, from your story, I can really see, I'm like, you're authentic 'cause you're doing what you love. [laughs] It's that simple. We don't need to overcomplicate this. 57:00 So I don't know, what, do you agree with that statement, or what, what do you think? Yeah, for the most part, I do. Uh, I think that there is, when you are aligned with who you really are- Mm-hmm... 57:11 like, magic happens, right? Right. Your life becomes easier. Things flow. When you're on purpose and on mission, like, things really happen, and they happen quickly. You know? Right. 57:23 If you're out of an integrity with yourself and what you're here to really do, things get hard. And that doesn't mean that there won't be, you know- Right... challenges and obstacles- Sure... 57:33 'cause there, that's life, you know? Life is hard. [laughs] Um, but yeah, when you are out of alignment with yourself, it's very difficult to be authentic. Yeah. 57:45 And I think it's harder and harder these days, uh, for people to be authentic or to know what that is. We have so many protection mechanisms that we- Mm... put up, so, like, uh, these emotional walls that protect us. 58:00 And, and most of the time people don't even realize they have a mask on or they have a wall up. They're like, "Oh, I'm being authentic to, like, what I'm feeling in this moment." Right? And it's like, okay, great. 58:11 That's an authentic feeling, right? Feel that emotion. But that emotion or what you're feeling isn't who you really are. Mm. You know? So we get caught up in the, "Oh, my feelings or emotions, that's 58:30 how I feel about this thing, so that's who I am, and I identify with that." But that might not be the truest form of, like, who we really are, you know? Mm-hmm. Uh, 58:44 that feeling could just be saying, "Hey, this is out of alignment." [laughs] Right. Right? This isn't actually- Right... true to who you are, you know? Mm. 58:53 So it takes a lot of self-reflection and a lot of, like, looking inward and emotional intelligence to be able to- Mm... be authentic. Having that awareness. Totally. Awareness is key. 59:07 Um, and I think once you find that awareness, you're able to show up more authentically to the people around you, and even to yourself, and it really starts with the mind, right? Mindset, as you were saying earlier, too. 59:23 And having the right mindset, aligning with your purpose, what you wanna do, and you just keep showing up, and you keep following through, and you keep doing that, and others will rally. 59:35 You'll build a community, uh, from your authentic self, right? Because people love authentic people, right? So having that authenticity 59:46 will definitely bring people around you because I think more people really wanna be more authentic, but they're, they're not sure how to do that. Yeah. Uh, we've become so disconnected, um- Mm-hmm... 59:58 from ourselves and from other people. Like, even having real intimate conversations, uh, become difficult, you know, for a, a lot of people. And yeah, they don't really know 1:00:12 what that is or what it looks like to be- How to have a real conversation? What? [laughs] Yeah. Um, yeah. You know, that has some, you know- Yeah... depth and vulnerability. Mm. 'Cause 1:00:25 vulnerability can be scary, you know, and depending on your conditioning, right? It's like, oh, you don't be vulnerable. You know? Like, that can put you in danger. Um- Right... so 1:00:38 yeah, it's, I think where we're headed, especially with the AI and all of that, like- Right... people really need meaning and purpose in their life, right? 1:00:48 They need real human connection and authenticity, and- I was gonna say, they need connection, yeah... like being in the presence of somebody else. Mm-hmm. And- 1:00:59 Being so online all of the time, like, is just creating more and more disconnection, and it makes it- Right... harder and harder to have a real human connection, uh, when you're so used to not, you know? 1:01:14 Uh, so, like, all the technology, you know, can be great for, you know, commerce and all of that. But- Mm-hmm... as far as the detriment to our 1:01:25 human psyche and our meaning and purpose in life, it's having a really negative impact. 1:01:30 So the way that we get to show up as people and as humans, um, we get to show up heart-centered and in love, uh, and presence when we are with people. Um- Yeah, this is huge. 1:01:48 This is one of the biggest reasons I wanted to do more in-person podcasting as well, to share these stories with real people and have real conversations, because this is something that you don't get through social media. 1:02:00 It's all short form. Everyone has ADHD. Yeah. Everyone can't stand more than two, three seconds before flicking to the next video. Um, it makes our job so much harder- [laughs] Yeah... to catch people's attention. 1:02:13 You know, we live in this attention economy, too, so it's like, as a photographer, um, share with me a little bit about how you combat that or how you tolerate it. I don't know, like... 1:02:26 Yeah, it's interesting, it's like- [laughs]... this conversation has been coming up a lot more in my mind- Mm... and with other people. Mm. Um, because public speaking, uh, 1:02:39 social media videos, the things that are going viral- Yeah... one, they're, most of them are written by AI, right? Right. There's somebody reading from a script. Okay. It, as soon as I see that- Mm... 1:02:53 like as soon as I see, like, and it's instant. Like, you can see and hear when somebody's reading from a script or when it's written by AI. Like- Mm... there's a cadence, and it's just like, I'm out. 1:03:06 They're reading something. I'm done. Yeah, you can tell when someone's reading off, yeah. Yeah, and it, like, reading is fine if you, if you wrote it, but when it's clearly AI, which it's- You can tell [laughs]... 1:03:15 very obvious. Like, I just completely lose trust. Yeah. And I completely lose interest. Right. And it's, I was at a conference this last weekend, too. Mm. And it's like you hear all of these people speak, and like 1:03:30 with the algorithms and with technology, it's like everything's come down to like this formula, right? Right. There's a formula to public speaking, right? 1:03:39 And it's like you listen into them, and it's like, oh, everything that they're saying is in the same order with the same inflection, because that's- Mm... proven to get the most engagement, right? You know? Sure. 1:03:51 It's the same thing with social media. Like, oh, proven ways to, you know, get a million views or whatever it is. Sure. You know? So you, you see the same formula over and over and over again, and it's just like... 1:04:06 You know? I- It's boring... to me, it just, like, it loses it. So I don't know exactly the answer. I mean, I think- Sure... as far as posting on social media and all that stuff, I've always been 1:04:20 bad at that, 'cause it's not been something that's really lit me up or given me joy or passion or anything like that. Yeah. So I've always struggled doing that. Mm-hmm. 1:04:33 But I really think that there's going to be a swing. It's like if you s- speak from the heart, you know, a- and create content that really moves you, you know, it's gonna reach the right people. Uh, by trying to 1:04:51 play the algorithm game and trying to play the formula game, you're instantly losing the authenticity that you're trying to build, right? Right. 1:05:02 You know, I, clients do it all the time, and it's like, uh, I've turned down jobs because it's like- Oh, wow... "Hey, we wanna shoot this that 1:05:12 looks like user-generated content, but we're filming it on a RED and we've got lighting, we got, you know, audio and all this stuff, but we wanna make it look like somebody just filmed it in their house." 1:05:22 And it's like, "'Cause we wanna make authentic content." It's like- Mm. How's that authentic, first off? [laughs] In no way is that authentic. I know, right? [laughs] You know? So it's- Mm-hmm... uh- That's funny. 1:05:34 [laughs] That's funny. But it's like- Mm... but they're like, oh, this, z- in their mind it makes sense, 'cause it's like, oh, this is the content that people are, uh, responding to, right? 1:05:44 So we gotta make content that's that, you know? And everybody's like- Mm... 1:05:48 it's taking things down, and instead of expanding what's possible, it's just narrowing everything, and then everybody starts to think the same way. Everybody thor- starts to have the same aesthetic, and, like- Oof... 1:06:04 I know. It's like- I can see that... you see it, I see it a lot with photography- Mm... is like you'll see somebody do a cool style, right? And then you see it everywhere, 'cause everybody just replicated what you did. 1:06:21 Right. So it's just like, oh, you might have something, you know, original, like, cool, like, artistic, like, style of photography. Mm. But it's only gonna be original for a day before- If that. [laughs] Yeah. 1:06:34 Before everybody else is like, "Oh, that's really cool. I'm gonna do it, too." And then it's just white noise. Right. You know? Right. And, like- Mm... I love, I don't know if you watched the, the World Cup, but- Nope. 1:06:46 [laughs] I did not. All of the major brands- Mm-hmm... were like, "How do we stand out?" Right? Right. And likely they used real people, but, you know, there's- Potentially... 1:07:01 potential that they used AI to be like, "What would be the best way to stand out?" Right. And it was like, "Use magenta as your boot color 'cause it'll stand out against the green." Oh my God. So- 1:07:12 Almost every single brands had magenta boots. No. So they were all trying to stand out, but ended up blending in because they all did the exact same thing. So the ones- Without talking to each other. 1:07:27 Did anyone do no magenta? Was there a brand that- I, I don't, I don't think there was a brand that didn't do it... 'cause that would've been s- standing out. [laughs] Right. Sticking true to, like- Right? Right? 1:07:40 So that, I thought- It's funny... that was really interesting and funny. That's funny. Yeah. And if you went into AI and you put in, like, "Hey, what is- That's funny... 1:07:47 the best way to stand out," you know, it, it says- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah... magenta. So- Sure... not saying that they all used AI to do that, but it's totally possible. Like- A lot of them did I, I imagine. Yeah. 1:07:57 Everyone's using it these days. Yeah. And it's hard to not avoid that conversation too, so I'm just gonna ask, how much AI do you use in your process? Little. Oh, okay. So I use it to help 1:08:13 structure my thoughts and my ideas- Sure... is really how I end up using it. Right. Um, I'll have, well, kind of all these, "What about this and this and this and this?" And it kind of helps me 1:08:27 bring it to piece it together and when I can't figure that out. Gotcha. That's kind of it. That's it. Just the brainstorming stages basically. Pretty much just brainstorming stage. Cool. 1:08:38 Like, I don't use it in any of my, uh, you know, photography or any of the editing or anything like that. Like, it's cool. It's a very useful, like, tool if it's done right. Yeah. But I'm, like, 1:08:52 I barely composite anything. Like, I started on film, and it was if you didn't get it in frame, you didn't get it. Mm. And I still hold that mentality. It took me a long time to even crop a photograph. Really? Yeah. Wow. 1:09:08 Like, 'cause it was like, I'm going to be very intentional- Right... with my framing, with my moment that I choose, like, all of it. Right. All the technical aspects, I wanna get it in camera. So- Right... 1:09:23 I, to the best of my ability, do that even now. Mm-hmm. So there will be every once in a while, it's like, oh, we need to replace this guy because there's no clouds. Sure. 1:09:32 Or, like, you know, there's a big egregious thing. It's like, hey, you know, let's move that, or, you know, let's green up this patch of grass. You know, stuff like that. Right. 1:09:43 If I'm shooting a series with a group, you know, a lifestyle shoot, and it's got, you know, five or six people in it, you know, sometimes I might replace one head. Sure. Right? 1:09:52 'Cause it's like everything else is perfect- [laughs]... except for this one expression. So let's take- Yeah... a shot I already did- Right... and just put it on there, right? [laughs] It's not creating something new. 1:10:02 Mm-hmm. You know? S- but that's the, kind of the extent of, yeah. And that's my, just the way that I work. Uh, I know that there's a lot of photographers that do a lot of compositing and create great art. Mm-hmm. 1:10:13 That's just not the way that I like to do it 'cause for me, it's not- Authentic... authentic. There we go. For me, yeah. [laughs] That word. Totally. Yeah. I, I want to photograph what's real- Mm-hmm... and true. Right. 1:10:28 Um, and whatever story that I'm telling. Mm. So it's ver- it can be very easy to fudge a story. Of course. Right? Yeah. Dang it, this isn't exactly what I had envisioned- Mm-hmm... 1:10:42 that this story was gonna be, but let's just, let's manipulate it in a way to get- Yeah... to where we wanna go. Right. 1:10:49 And in some, you know, ways, like if you're working with a client, you know, and they're trying to sell a specific product, right, there's a dance that you're- Sure. Ultimately, they're trying to sell a product, right? 1:11:00 We all are. [laughs] But if, like, real storytelling, it's like- Yeah... if you aren't telling what's real, then it's like, what are we? Right. What are you doing? Right. 1:11:12 Uh- Well, that's what I, I think great marketing is too, is great storytelling. Yeah. Totally. That's essentially it. And I'm curious about your marketing. [laughs] What marketing? 1:11:24 Well, with your production company at least, like how you started off marketing, some strengths, weaknesses you found in your marketing. 'Cause at the end of the day, you have to sell your services, right? 1:11:33 You have, you, you've gotta share your story with potential prospects, clients. Yeah. 1:11:38 So was that kind of a struggle for you initially, or where did you find yourself when you were trying to market your, your, your business, uh, initially? I'd love to hear that. 1:11:50 My business and my success was all built on relationships. Love that. Existing relationships, building new relationships, um- Nice... having a great team of people that believed in me- Mm... that would tell other people. 1:12:06 Referral-based. Okay. So I have not done really any marketing. There was one year a couple of years ago where I hired a marketing agency 'cause I was like- Really?... "You know what?" [laughs] "I'm doing really well." 1:12:21 Yeah. "Let's, let's add some marketing into this and, like, get some strategy and start doing this." And do better? [laughs] Right. That's it. And grow and stuff. And scale, right? 1:12:31 That was the worst year, that was the worst year I ever did. No. [laughs] I li- like, it was cr- I literally, like- Mm-hmm... ended up, uh, I think I spent, like, 50 or 60 grand or something like that. Damn. 1:12:44 I didn't get a single lead from it. And it was like, it wa- Did you vet these guys? Like- It, it's a very reputable, like, they're very good at what they do. Like, it just- Well, apparently not. [laughs] I know. 1:12:56 They didn't get you any leads- And it was-... so what's, what's going on here? It- Where's the disconnect? [laughs] I, exactly. So, uh- You should get, you should have got your money back, man. [laughs] Seriously. 1:13:05 [laughs] You know what? I think there's a lot of business lessons, you know- Okay. Sure... in life that happen, and it's- Yeah. That's fair... there's no guarantees in any of it. That's true. That's true. Right? 1:13:14 Part of being an entrepreneur is taking risks. Mm. True. Right? Yeah. And taking financial risk. Yeah. Right? When I started, I took a huge financial risk. I had no money, [laughs] you know? That, yeah, that's, yeah. 1:13:29 That's scary. But that's what separates entrepreneurs or creatives from other people. Mm. It's, like, the ability to take massive risks. Right. And, you know, sometimes it's rewarded, and sometimes it's not. Mm. 1:13:46 You know, I learned a lot from that experience. Right. Right? You know, I, what I lost in money, I gained in intellectual property and growth. Mm-hmm. Right? Not only emotionally, but in business. Like, 1:14:01 money is just, it's just energy, right? It's just one form of wealth, right? There are many different forms of wealth. Right. And energy doesn't cha- doesn't go away or, it just changes form. Mm. Right? 1:14:18 So it's like, I could think, sure, I lost all of that money, and be, you know, upset and hurt and, you know, surely there were some rough emotions that I had to experience. Mm-hmm. And 1:14:33 what did I gain from that experience? And it's worth a whole lot more than what I spent. Yeah. It was an experience. [laughs] Yeah. And you learned a valuable lesson, and you won't do that again. [laughs] Right. 1:14:46 But I wanna go- Marketing is dumb. Don't market. Right, right. [laughs] Kidding. No, you're good. He's probably pretty good. I, I, I try. [laughs] Um, but I wanna go back to relationships. Yeah. That you were saying. 1:14:56 That's where you got most of your leads, most of how people were able to hire you, and I think that's a big reason, um, you know, why you do what you do today and how you form relationships. 1:15:07 So share with me a little bit about your relation building, like how, how do you get to know a prospective client, let's say, and how do you exchange that value, and how do you communicate that, I guess? 1:15:21 Because I, I feel like a lot of creatives, they kinda struggle with that, of like, oh, I have a service, or I have something I'm really good at, and I think that I could sell it, right? Or, or like offer it as a service. 1:15:34 But I'm not sure yet. They're not brave because maybe it's their first time doing it with someone who wants to hire them. Like, where, like... 1:15:43 And this is coming from, like, a place that, yeah, it's, it's just a young person trying to learn, right? Essentially. So coming from that place. 1:15:51 So what would you give them, or some lessons maybe, or some advice that you would give them when they're first, like, starting out and trying to build relationships and with prospects? 1:16:01 And yeah, how does that whole process, you find, work the best? And I know you'll probably say, "Oh, it's different for everyone," but besides that, it's like, like the general theme of it. Does that make sense? Yeah. 1:16:13 Okay. You can't fake a relationship. Mm. Right? People- Right... will sniff that out, right? If you are just trying to start a relationship so you can get something out of it- Right... that's gonna turn people off. 1:16:31 For sure. Right. And they're gonna feel that. They're just like, "No." But if you're genuinely interested in getting to know that person- Mm-hmm... right? 1:16:39 'Cause we think about brands as, like, these big brands, but they're run by people, right? Right, right. The agencies are run by people, the creatives are all people. So it's like, 1:16:52 how do you really actually authentically connect to them and get curious about who they are, right? Mm-hmm. And being genuinely, like, want to know that. For sure. You know? Yeah. I think that that's really, like, the 1:17:07 big starting point. Mm. And it's like, yes, there's the business aspect of things where you're solving a problem, right? Right. You also have to be very confident that you are the one that can solve their problems. Mm. 1:17:19 Right? If you aren't confident that you are the right person for the job, why are they gonna think and have that confidence? That's a great point. [laughs] I love that, yeah. You know? So it's like if you, 1:17:32 the more you really believe in yourself and believe in what it is that you're offering, the easier it is to sell, right? 'Cause you don't actually have to sell it, right? 1:17:41 They feel that, and they're like, "I don't know even really exactly what it is that you're selling, but I trust you." Mm. Right? Right. So you have to be aligned with yourself, right? Right. 1:17:53 You can't be bullshitting yourself. And if you are, like, if you haven't built the confidence yet in your abilities, like, what do you need to do to build that confidence, right? Mm. What are low stakes 1:18:07 things that you can do to stretch yourself outside of your comfort zone? So that way you can build that confidence. So that way, when you do have an opportunity in front of you, you can jump on that opportunity, but also 1:18:23 have this undeniable belief in yourself that you are the right person for that job, and that you can execute on it- Mm... for them. I love that. You know? Like- That's, that's a great point... 1:18:36 if you, if you don't have that, like, 'cause you have to build trust. Mm. Mm-hmm. Right? And- That takes time, though, doesn't it? It can, surely. Right. 1:18:47 I mean, there, there are times where it's been six months, a year, two years of being friends with somebody, of actually getting to know them on a personal level before a job ever shows up. Damn. [laughs] Right? 1:19:01 That's a long time. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, you know, it's, if it was easy, everybody would do it. Yes. This is true. [laughs] Right? But you also just gotta know your audience, right? Mm-hmm. Right. 1:19:16 Like, you gotta understand what their pain points are. They gotta understand what it is that they're trying to create and accomplish- Right... and be able to really solve that.... problem- Mm-hmm... 1:19:28 for them and have the confidence that you can do that. Uh, and the patience, 'cause sometimes it's like, 1:19:36 oh, they've already booked up for, you know, the next few months or whatever, or they don't have a project on the line, right? You know- Right... it's not like, "Oh, I've got a T-shirt," right? Right. 1:19:48 "Oh, you want a T-shirt? Great, here you go." You know, it's like there is a lot of timing that goes into it also and being patient as well. Um- Timing, patience, confidence. Yeah. Is there one other thing? I forget. 1:20:05 Me too. I thought you said one... Okay. Yeah. [laughs] I thought there was another thing you said about that, but- There probably is. They can rewind it. Sure. Totally. 1:20:10 [laughs] Um, yeah, I think confidence plays a massive role. Trust. There we go. I think that was the other one. Trust. Yeah, so- Yeah. Building trust. How do you build trust and- Mm-hmm... as quickly as possible? Right. 1:20:22 Right. And it- Consistency- Yeah... I would say. Absolutely. Um, because the more you see someone, the more you're gonna trust them, obviously, than a random stranger. Um, likability. Mm-hmm. Relatability. 1:20:34 Um, and then ultimately, yeah, the confidence, assertiveness of like, are you going to actually deliver this thing that you're offering? [laughs] Yeah. And you're not gonna scam me. 1:20:44 [laughs] Because then- And then you have to deliver it. Yeah, and actually follow through and l- deliver it because I feel like, especially the internet, it's became way too easy to scam people- Oh my God, yeah... 1:20:54 these days. 1:20:55 I was in another interview earlier with, um, a business owner, a creator, and she was just telling me how everyone just lies, flat out lies about these brand deals online and about, "Oh, buy my course instead." 1:21:10 And this is all a course thing too- Yeah... of like, you get my course, and that's just another way that they scam you because they don't really tell you how to get these brands. 1:21:18 They just h- sell these courses, and I'm just like, that's kind of genius, but [laughs] that's so messed up at the same time. 1:21:26 They're, 'cause they're literally not selling you anything, and they're just taking your money, and people are straight flat out lying to you, and she hates it. Yeah. She hates it so much. 1:21:35 She's like, "Why can't people just be honest and truthful?" I'm like, "You know?" [laughs] The world would be a much different place if we could. Oh my gosh. 1:21:44 I wish we could have little lie detectors somehow on the internet of like, oh, scam, stay away. 1:21:48 Oh, I guess AI could potentially do that maybe 'cause she has used AI in the past to be like, "Oh, is this course verifiable? What do you think?" And she has taken it to ChatGPT, and ChatGPT is saying, "Oh, no. 1:22:01 Stay away. That's not a good... You know, you can do it this way and save your money." So she does, I guess, leverage AI to that extent, but at the end of the day, you don't know how, like, truthful AI is even, right? 1:22:11 So it's like- Oh, yeah. I mean- [laughs]... it's part of the attention economics, right? True. It's also designed- Mm-hmm... to keep you on there as long as possible, right? So- That's true. Yes... 1:22:23 it's going, and it can be- very easily pump you up and- Mm-hmm... tell you that your ideas are really great or you're on the right track, and like... I mean, it's put people into, like, psychosis. 1:22:34 I've heard of this, yes. Uh, because it's like convinced them that they've, like- [laughs]... figured out some new mathematical thing that's gonna save the world or whatever. Sure. And it's completely made up. 1:22:46 [laughs] So you do have to be really careful with- Mm-hmm... utilizing it- Yeah... and really pushing back- Right... uh, on like, "Oh, you give me that answer." Like, let me push back on it. 1:22:58 A lot of times you push- Yeah... back and it's like, "Yeah, actually you were right. Like, I made that up, bro. That's not actually correct." [laughs] And it's like, 1:23:05 is- there's so many people that don't do that- So funny... that, yeah. Um, so I mean, it's important to question your everything. But it's- Of course. Yeah... 1:23:15 even to question your own thoughts and your own beliefs, right? Mm-hmm. 'Cause they're not always true. Even if a chatbot tells you they're true, it doesn't mean it is. [laughs] You're totally right on that note. 1:23:28 So it's, it's, yeah, I don't trust anything on the internet, obviously. I've tried to make it a point in my own life to, like, start doing more IRL stuff, start connecting with more real people- Yeah... 1:23:38 going to more networking events, just because of the lack of trust that I see online. I'm like, I don't know what to believe these days. Yeah. Like, what's real and what's fake, you know? 1:23:46 I feel like a lot of the internet's now turning more AI generated, more fakeness, and it's like, if I really wanna, like, be in the moment, be in nature, be in the world, I've gotta actually be in the world and not behind my computer- Yeah... 1:24:00 the entire day, which I know tons of people do. So, um, finding that balance, especially with technology, how ubiquitous it is, um, it's, it's challenging, you know? Yeah. Uh, especially with your line of work too. 1:24:15 I feel like if you're not on a shoot, you're behind the computer. [laughs] Or in a river. [laughs] Or in a river, right. Yeah, which is amazing. I freaking love this, dog behind us. Oh, that's, that's awesome. 1:24:26 Oh, hi puppies. I love this. We're gonna get them in the background maybe. So that's dope. Um, no, I did another podcast interview in a park. Awesome. We had a random dog. 1:24:34 Um, she was walking right behind us, and she, like, literally stopped, and she was just curious, and I had my cat Stella on my lap actually during the recording. Nice. Yeah. 1:24:44 Yeah, and I was like, "Do they know we're recording?" [laughs] So funny. And she was like, "Oh, just my, my dog's admiring your cat. He really loves cats," and she said this all on the... [laughs] That's awesome. 1:24:58 I'm like, "Yeah, we're just gonna keep rolling." [laughs] That's fantastic. I didn't cut it out. I think it was great, but, uh, the lady that was next to me was so funny though, and it- Yeah... it was a great interview. 1:25:06 I freaking love it. I was, did that in, uh, Colorado Springs actually. Cool. So it's episode, forget, I think it was like episode 19 or 20. But anyway, we're, we're kinda winding down here. 1:25:14 I feel like we're getting to that time, but, um, I, I definitely had a lot of fun. This was really cool. 1:25:20 First experience in the river, and, um, is there anything else that you wanted to touch on that we didn't go through or something we didn't cover that you wanted to share with everyone? 1:25:30 I always love to ask that question. Yeah. Um- I, I told you before [laughs] I'll, I'll keep it short 'cause I know we've gone long, but- No, you're good. Uh, I told you before there was a story that- Yeah... 1:25:42 uh, would be really great to share, and it's- Yeah... uh, an impactful thing that, you know, happened in my life and really, like- Mm... propelled my career in a very different way than I ever thought. 1:25:59 Um, but it speaks to the power of storytelling and the power of photography. And I'll try to tell this without crying. Um- Oh, okay. In 2011, there, I was driving back from 1:26:17 Oklahoma, where my parents live, back to Springfield, Missouri. Mm. And I saw these crazy clouds, and I'm not a storm chaser or anything, but I had my camera gear, and I was about 10 minutes from Joplin, Missouri. 1:26:32 And so I pulled out on the side of the road, I'm like, "There's a tornado in these clouds somewhere." Mm. And right at that moment, I got a call from my buddy who worked at the Springfield News-Leader, the paper there. 1:26:46 Yeah. And he was like, "Hey, do you have your camera gear? I know you're driving back into town. Uh, we had a report that there was a tornado in Joplin, but we don't have any... We haven't heard anything. 1:27:00 We don't even know if it has any damage or anything like that." And so I was like, "I'm literally 10 minutes from there, if that, maybe five minutes." Like, I always stop in Joplin. 1:27:14 And so I was like, "I'll stop, see what I can find," you know? Um, for you or those that don't know, there was a tornado that year that ripped through the town and killed over 150 people. It was a mile-wide tornado. 1:27:31 Yeah. Luckily, I was not in it, because had I not stopped to photograph the clouds- Mm... I would've been in Joplin, 'cause I always stop there on my route. Wow. So I'm driving in. 1:27:49 I didn't know what I was getting myself into. Uh, I was there before any paramedics. Like, any, like, it had literally just hit. Yeah. And 1:28:01 at first I didn't see anything, and then, uh, I saw a few, like, uh, signs that were kind of bent. I was like, "Oh, maybe there's something here." Right. And then I crest the hill and the town was leveled. 1:28:17 And I ended up, you know, I parked my car and I grabbed my gear 'cause I couldn't drive anymore. The street was flooded and, uh, the lights were out. The roads were covered in trees and debris and cars. And 1:28:32 I ended up, like, going and, like, photographing, finding people, um, to photograph- Mm... and to tell this story, and they're trying to communicate with me and- Mm-hmm... 1:28:44 trying to send, like, pictures on my phone and, like, there's no service. And, like, finally got ahold of them and they were like, like, "What's going on?" And I was like, "It's fucked. Like, it's gone. 1:28:54 Like, the town is gone." Wow. And they're like, "I don't understand what you mean." I was like trying to send stuff. I was like, "Just... I'm gonna do the best I can." Yeah. 1:29:04 And I'd never been in, you know, any sort of situation like that. Like- Really?... that was so wild. So there was a lot that I could photograph, right? Mm. There was a lot of destruction. 1:29:16 There was a lot of things happening. But I chose, as a storyteller, like, what's important, right? And I was like, "It's the people." Mm-hmm. Right? This is the story. 1:29:32 So I photographed, and I mean, I saw dead bodies. I saw destruction, like some intense, like, grief and, um, people that were really hurt. 1:29:45 And, you know, a part of me, like, wanted to just, like, sit on the ground and cry because of the devastation. Uh, part of me really wanted to put the camera down and just help, right? Right. It was like, 1:30:01 they were pulling, like, supplies out of this Walmart that got destroyed. It was, like, finding blankets and clothes and paper towels, and it was like, "Oh, I can, I could help them do that stuff." Right. 1:30:12 But there was, there was something in me that was like, "No, like, I need to tell this story somehow. Like, I have... Like, I'm here to do a job. Like, I'm..." And so fought through, like, all of that, and 1:30:27 it ended up being this weird experience because the sun was setting, so it was like twilight, like gorgeous sunlight, you know? 1:30:41 And so this beautiful light and this horrendous destruction- Mm... and human suffering. And as a photographer, I was like, "Oh, my God, I'm getting these amazing photographs." And as a human, I was just breaking inside. 1:30:59 Anyway, 1:31:01 fast-forward, we'll skip a few details, but, you know, the images ended up running on the front page and, uh, running all over Twitter, and got picked up by, like, CNN and ABC World News and really getting the word out there. 1:31:17 And I carried a lot of guilt at first of I didn't help these people. And there was one photograph that was on the ABC World News that it was a, 1:31:32 a picture of this truck, and in the back of the truck, it was driving down the road, there was a mattress and somebody laying down, and two nurses, like, holding a, um-[smacks lips] 1:31:42 A bag of saline, taking them to a makeshift triage. You, you took this picture? And I took this picture. Wow. And, like- That's cool... in the background, like, there's water spraying up from a fire hydrant. 1:31:55 Like, it was like this, it was a really powerful- Wow... image. Mm-hmm. And I got a phone call randomly that, from this woman, and she goes, "Hey, are you the photographer that took this picture?" Mm-hmm. 1:32:08 Um, "I wanna get a copy of it. It, that is, in that photo is my, my son and his wife, and they just finished nursing school, and they were just on the outside of the, [smacks lips] 1:32:23 you know, the damage, so they were able to, like, go and help and serve." Yeah. And it was, you know, obviously it was like, "Yes. Let me, give me your address. I'll send it." And I talked to her for about an hour. Wow. 1:32:34 And I was like, "Man, I wish I could have helped, like, your, your son- Mm... and your si- your s- daughter-in-law help." She's like, "Don't you know that you did?" Mm. And I was like, "What do you mean?" Mm. 1:32:46 She was like, "Everybody..." There was other pho- photographers there, but all they photographed was torn down buildings. Mm-hmm. I was the only one that photographed the people. Hmm. 1:32:57 And she was like, "Because you did this and what you photographed, now the world knows what's happening." And there was a massive movement to go help rebuild, to give money. Mm-hmm. 1:33:15 And, you know, it's interesting. My girlfriend now, like, she ended up going, I didn't know her at the time. You know, this is- Oh, before girlfriend, okay. Yeah. 1:33:23 Like, this is, you know, years, she went to go help rebuild, uh, in Joplin, like- Oh... because she saw the photographs. She saw the damage- No way. Whoa... that was done. So- Wow... 1:33:36 I, that's when I really learned that, like, photography has real impact- Mm... and the power to move people and to take action, especially when it connects to the heart. Right? When it's connected to the emotions. 1:33:54 And I think that even when I took those photographs, I was photographing with my heart, 'cause my heart was with those people, right? Which just resonated with the audience even more. 1:34:08 So that was, like, a huge moment for me, and there was a lot of- Wow... mixed emotions, because see, this is the first time I got national and world recognition for my work, 1:34:26 and it was for the most traumatic experience I've ever had, [laughs] and got to, like, be a part of. So it was just like I wished it was for something else, but it was like, no, it was perfect. You know? 1:34:37 So I, I hold- Wow... that with me when I photograph and when I tell stories, is like, there's a responsibility in telling real human stories- Mm-hmm... that connects people. Right. 1:34:53 Uh, and it has real power. So when I see photographs that are pretty, it doesn't do anything for me. Right. Right? It's, does it have that emotion? 1:35:09 Does it have that power to move somebody, whether they take action on something or not? But, like, what is that saying? You know, what does that image say? What does that story really say? 1:35:24 And being really intentional on the stories that we tell, and leading with our hearts, 1:35:34 and telling stories that are impactful is so important, especially nowadays, when people just want to tell stories to get likes, you know, to get views. It's not, it's not helping anybody. Right. Right? 1:35:52 You know, it's... I wanna tell stories that help the world, that help people. And I like working with the big companies. It's nice. It's great. But what I really love doing and want to do more of is 1:36:08 work with mission-driven businesses, work with causes, work with people and organizations that have a real impactful story to tell that's gonna have a positive impact in the world, right? 1:36:25 Whether it's community or the environment or, you know, whatever it might be, but it's like, what is that? So that's what I do, and even what I bring to, say, if I'm shooting for, you know, Vail, right? 1:36:41 Ultimately, they're a business and they want to make money selling lift tickets, right? But what can I bring to it, right? 1:36:53 If I can bring an emotion to it and inspire people to get outside, to be in nature- Mm-hmm... to exercise, 1:37:03 to have a connection with friends, like, "Oh, let's take a friends camping trip," or, "Let's go do this," like, that's what I bring. Hmm. Right? 1:37:12 'Cause that is something that is beneficial to everybody, is being in nature and, um, having those human connections. So, like, when I'm photographing, yes, I have their mission in mind, but I have my own, too, 1:37:29 and it's like what is the positive impact that I get to make by doing this work? I love that. Yeah, impact, it's really strong. A- and knowing that impact, too, goes a long way, and- 1:37:47 Yeah, just thank you for sharing. That, that brought so many more questions, but [laughs] I know. We could, we could talk forever- Oh, we could... 1:37:53 about it We could, man, but, um- Like, I think that's probably one of the first times I ever told that story in public- Really? Well, you held it so beautifully. I'm just- The experience- Yeah... of it, like- Yeah. 1:38:01 It's, it, that was so impactful. I was gonna ask- It was unreal... what, was it on the New York Times too? Like- Um-... did that image get everywhere? Like- It kind of got everywhere... AP or... Okay. 1:38:09 Um, so it was- That's awesome... yeah, it was all over the place, and it, you know- That's been so cool for you, that exposure, you know? Just- It was cool, and it was, uh, like I- Yeah... hated it at the same time. 1:38:20 Really? Why? Uh, well, just I wished it was for something else, you know? I wish it was something more positive. Oh- But I-... I see... at the time. Okay. Now, I really am very grateful for it- Sure, yeah... 1:38:28 but at the time, I di- But I was also going through a very, like... It was a traumatic experience. Yeah, you were part of that. Like- Yeah... the, for the next two weeks, like, I hung out with all of the 1:38:43 photographers and news anchors and all that stuff that would come into town, and, uh, come back and we'd go. At that time, I still drank, and, uh, we'd go to the bar and tell war stories and- Oh, wow... 1:38:56 uh, you know, they saw way more of it than I did. Mm. But one of the things that they said, like, "You led the way and prepared us for what we were about to walk into." Mm. You- they were like, "You didn't know 1:39:13 what you were walking into." Like, I just went in blind, you know, and then was just, like, hit by this. Like, my work helped even them prepare them to be able to do their job, and to be able to, uh, cope 1:39:29 with the trauma. Right. Uh, 'cause even just going to experience it was, is a traumatic e- event for everybody. Uh, but anyway, that's- No, I love it. Yeah. Uh, where can people find you if they wanna contact you? 1:39:43 Yeah, so my website is johnnybadgood.com, J-O-N-N-Y Badgood. Uh- Mm... whole other story with that name. I was gonna ask- Yeah. [laughs]... but maybe we'll save that for next time. [laughs] Yeah. 1:39:54 In- Instagram, uh- Yeah... JohnnyBadgood, uh, as well. You can find me on LinkedIn. Every- everywhere, it's gonna be JohnnyBadgood, so. Okay. Yeah. Awesome. 1:40:02 Well, appreciate you coming on the pod, and, uh, we'll see you next time. Yeah. [laughs] Thanks, dude. Yeah. Hey, guys. I hope you enjoyed the episode. 1:40:10 If you wouldn't mind liking, subscribing, commenting, sharing, rating, reviewing, it would mean the world to me and Stella here if you did that, and it really would help support the show. 1:40:22 Thank you so much, and stay grateful. Right, Stella? Stay grateful? [laughs] [outro music]
